Lister(oid) Concrete Base

[veggie]

Hi All,

I am planning to pour a concrete slab according to the instructions in the original Lister manual.
A block 2.5 ft wide X 2.5 ft long X 30 inches tall.
The block will be 1/2 in the ground and 1/2 exposed.
Question:
Can I use bagged concrete? (6000 lb high strength) ?

Veggie

[38ac]

I wouldn't think there is any reason for high strength because there was no such thing when Lister spec'ed the base. Lister or Listeroid? Now that would make a difference if the India balance is as usual.

[broncodriver99]

Bagged concrete shouldn't be an issue, just be ready to go non stop until it is all done. You don't want a cold joint in your slab.

6000 psi is the upper limit where even though it is stronger as far as compressive load you start crossing into brittle territory when it comes to ductility(vibration and shock loads). If you get your anchors deep enough and grout your base that would likely be negated.

6000 psi is going to be pretty expensive vs a standard 3-4k mix and it goes off fast. The structural load bearing projects I have dealt with have all been in the 4500-5000 psi range and it comes in thick and generally has to be worked and finished within 60 mins of mixing the batch.

Unless there is a good deal to be had on the concrete I wouldn't volunteer to use it as it is considerably harder to work than a standard mix.

[veggie]

Thanks for the info guys. I think I will use the regular 4500#-5000# strength as suggested.
I do have a mixer and I intend to do a continuous pour (approximately 48 bags of concrete).
Once the block is set, I plan to pour a shed floor around the block ( but not touching it ).
Then put a shed over it.
I want to make this a super simple installation with just the engine, 24v alternator, and cooling system.
Still deciding whether to make it a hopper tank cooling system or maybe a thermosyphon radiator/fan.
Off Grid battery charging.

[veggie]

While on this subject, what is  good method for perfectly locating the engine mount rods into the concrete in such a way that they line up with the engine after curing? Do most people build a jig frame to space the rods exactly like the engine bolt pattern.? Something like a rectangular frame holding all 4 rods that can be lowered into the wet concrete.

[broncodriver99]

I have built jigs and it works well when you can run the anchors at least a few inches long above your finished grade and cut them down to suit. No matter how hard you try the pressure from the concrete will move the anchors around a little and they may not be plumb once everything is said and done. Running them long allows something to grab to tweak them into place. If you block up off of your forms a couple of inches with your jig it will make it easier to get a good finish on the concrete. I have had good luck using unistrut on something like you are doing. It is good and stiff and can be bolted to the forms until everything sets up. Just bolt your anchors to it with washers and nuts top and bottom.

Another option is to install the anchors after the pour. There are a few different epoxy or grout systems out there for high strength applications. There are a lot of modern concrete fasteners these days as well. Tapcon and Simpson Strong Tie are some that I have used and work well as well as the old school wedge anchors. Hard to beat an old school embeded J bolt though.

No matter which route you go you want to give it a couple of weeks to come up to strength before loading cast in fateners or especially if drilling for post placement fasteners.

[38ac]

When I poured the base for my 1115 Changfa generator I tacked together an angle iron framework with the required holes in the correct place and large enough to set on top of the forms with spacers so I could get a trowel under it. That being said modern type anchors work very well. Which ever you choose everything stays tight better of you shim the base up off the concrete a bit and grout it.
 Mine sits a foot over the floor and I wish that I'd made it higher for my old back when performing maintance.

[veggie]

bronco and 38c,

Great information, thanks 

[Powdermonkey]

Loooorrrddddd Almighty.  Veggie- I have been DOWN this road.  I have poured a 12-foot x 12-foot base, 10-inches THICK, to house a series of singles and twins.  I have painstakingly laid out the bolts IN the concrete.  I have supported them with plywood, while the concrete was curing, just to keep them straight.  All, according to the printed plans for these listeroids.

 I installed my first 16/1 on this concrete, and these bolts, and I tied it to a generator.  And...I started the thing.  And....I made power off it for several months.  And....EACH time I started that 16/1, I COULD FEEL THE GROUND SHAKING, SOME 20-FEET AWAY from the engine.   AND....3 of those 1/2 inch (or more) bolts sheared off from that beautiful concrete, sometime in the first several weeks of running that system. 

And then, I realized....I'd better build a floating system.  And so, I broke out the welder.....and that's JUST what I did. 

I'll call you every dirty name in the book, if you bother to TIE THAT ENGINE down to solid concrete, without floating it on some rubber isolators.   The power stroke alone is enough to wake the dead.  And, there's one ass-load of them, when it comes to running a Lister......

Truly, if you need some ideas, I'd be happy to share. 

[veggie]

Powdermonkey,
So.., !   I am not the only one who has issues with the ground thumping. 
Here' my short story:
For several years I have used my listeroid which is SOFT mounted to the garage concrete floor located 25 feet from the house.
The generator base rests on 4 vibration isolators which are supposedly rated for the weight of the unit.
I suspect that while they are the correct weight rating, they are not rated for very low frequency power pulses and are better suited to higher rpm multi cylinder engines. I also worked very hard to make the exhaust almost silent so that the neighbors cannot hear the system running. All seemed good. Then last month I was running the engine to heat the greenhouse. When I went inside the house I heard a tapping and bumping sound. I went into the basement and could hear 2 distinct sounds. One was a plumbing pipe vibrating at the same frequency as the engine, and the other sound was a deep bass thump coming through the walls of the foundation. :-(
Remember, this is 25 feet away from the generator. I got concerned that my neighbors may also have this thumping in their foundation.
This is when I got the idea to move the generator to the country to charge batteries at a cabin. So I researched how Lister recommended to mount the engines back in the 60's. I was under the impression that a 1600 pound concrete block would eliminate the ground thump. The ground thumping while trying to sleep at a cabin is also not acceptable.
Your story is very useful and will potentially save a lot of time/effort.

Alternate method:
I did come across some Marine engine vibration isolators which are quite soft and would probably absorb most of the power pulse, however I suspect that the engine may also bounce around a lot. What is your experience?
There are a lot of previous threads relating to Lister mounting and I have read most of them but there doesn't seem to be any one solution that fits all applications.

[veggie]

PS: last month I removed the Listeroid and replaced it with a slow speed S195 Changfa which has internal counter-balance shafts.
Here you can see the soft mounts that isolated the listeroid base from the floor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9jcvJQ2Gs8

The issue now is how to build base for the relocation of the Listeroid.

[Randybee1]

What kind of mounts ( and where are you buying them) are you guys using for your Listers ( and Changfa horizontals? I've spent a small fortune on isolators over the few years and pretty much nothing I've tried works.
Randy B

[veggie]

RandyBee1,

The isolators I currently use are made by Karman and were purchased through Acklands/Graiger.
Below is the drawing I made to incorporate the Karman isolator into my engine base design.

Also below is the softer "Navy" isolator I was intending to try on the listeroid.They are from Lord Isolators.

I should note that the Karman isolators were marginal in perforance. They did prevent my garage pad from cracking but they still allowed a thumping force to travel through the ground to my house.
In the case of Changfa type engines, the cylinder is horizontal so the combustion forces are sideways vs. vertical like the lister, so ground thumping is eliminated.

[veggie]

Here is an example of a "soft mounted" listeroid.
It seems that there is a trade-off between excessive shaking and ground thumping where one may have to accept a little of both in order to tame the lister.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbqWkVC84bQ

Also, each owner is probably different in that they could be running the engine at different speeds (pulse frequency), with generator bases and generator heads of different weights. So a generic solution likely does not exist.

In my case, I want to mount the Listeroid on its own. No Base frame. No AC generator head.
Just a heavy duty 24 volt DC alternator attached to the engine. I thought that a 1600 lb concrete block would kill all shaking and thumping but it seems I was mistaken. By the way, when my listeroid was thumping into the house it was only running at 500 rpm with a 1.5kw load. Not excessive. And it's a fairly well balanced engine.

[sailawayrb]

https://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Sample_Isolation_Stand_Design.pdf