Author Topic: piston cylinder  (Read 8273 times)

wrightkiller

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piston cylinder
« on: September 02, 2006, 02:54:20 PM »
How hard is it to change a piston cylinder and does one need to have a
press to do so?????? has any one done this????/
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 06:47:22 PM by wrightkiller »

dkwflight

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 03:14:16 PM »

Hi  I am speaking out of turn 'cause I haven't done this, but.
The sleaves on Detroit diesels were pulled with a "Slap Hammer". It is a slideing weight on a bar. You need a fitting like a heavy washer with a step in the side to fit the cylinder. This can be made easily on a lathe. The idea is to help hold the driver in the bore. The fit is not critical and you may be able to borrow one from you frendly neighborhood diesel mechanic.
It may not need anything more than dropping the cylinder on a plank to jar it loose.
How difficult this will be depends on how much time the cylinder has been in place.
Getting the cylinder assy off the studs may present a problem too.  Possibly a cold chisel in the gasket could help here.
Good luck
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

mobile_bob

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2006, 06:59:46 PM »
you will likely not be able to pull the liner with a slide hammer, as the o-ring seals at the bottom of the liner will hold it pretty tight (that is if it is a wet liner)

you might get it out if it is a dry liner using this method, might

in either event you will need a puller plate that fits the bottom of the sleeve as Dennis suggested, it is stepped to fit into the liner/sleeve and its OD is smaller than the outside diameter of the sleeve (this is important as you can severely scar the casting if you get it cocked.

usually a screw puller will bring it out.

why do you need to pull it?  is it worn, cracked or?

bob g
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cujet

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2006, 11:07:47 PM »
I used a press to push out my sleeve. It did not take much press force, but I suspect I could NOT do it by jumping on the sleeve. I tried using a 5 pound hammer and wood, while the cylinder is placed on 2 blocks of wood. That did not work.

The 2 "O" rings will hold the sleeve in fairly tightly, so a slide hammer is not a good idea. I guess 500 pounds force is required. Threaded rod would make enough force.

The installation was another story. The sleeves did not want to seat all the way down. It took massive force with the press, and finally I used the cylinder head without a head gasket to force the sleeves down.

Chris
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

mobile_bob

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2006, 01:00:59 AM »
cujet:

what did you use to lubricate your o rings?

bob g
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dkwflight

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2006, 01:29:56 AM »
Hi I was thinking silicone grease for lube. What would you recomend?
Dennis
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Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

mobile_bob

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2006, 04:20:31 AM »
detroit used antifreeze for lube on their 92 series,, i never liked it.

liquid dish soap is slippery as heck,, works well

my favorite is tire soap, the thick stuff they mount truck tires with,,, very slick, no rolled o rings, and it won't attack the rubber.

 there is also a silicone based lube that oring manufactures recommend for pneumatics and hydraulic's it works well.

i would not recommend motor oil, although one could use it, and likely be ok,,, some orings swell a bit with it though, so you wanna lube it and install fairly quickly.

my favorite is tire soap though :)

just smear it on the o rings and the iron where they will slide in, and give the liner a partial twist as you press in by hand.

don't use gloves or anything that might get pinched between the liner and the bore, and keep the lip and counter bore very clean.

bout a 1/4 twist with steady and firm pressure the liner should drop in, and if it is not quite down, press it down with standoff pipes and washers over the studs to hold it down. usually if held down till you are ready to move on to piston installation it will stay down.

alternatively we use a dead blow hammer, (shot filled hard rubber) to thump it down.

finish off by cleaning the cylinder bore with clean white paper towels and oil till they come out golden, with no signs of gray or any thing else that looks like dirt. i keep beating this clean drum, because you would be surprised how many diesel techs skip this step in shops.

do not use carb cleaners, brake cleaners or any other spray cleaners on the cylinder bores, they look like they work well, but in reality they remove the oil just fine but leave micro dirt trapped in the crosshatch. which in turn becomes a very fine lapping compound!

bob g
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wrightkiller

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2006, 04:48:11 AM »
This is what happened to me ..I was moving the cylinder from the top of the crankcase to the work bench ,on the way over to it I triped and fell forward just at the bench,the cylinder just did land on the bench,  but hit with enough force to push the piston sleeve up and about 1/8 of an inch. I have tryed to get it back in but no luck as of yet..  tryed a 4x4 and hammer... rubber mallett..   

cujet

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2006, 04:53:14 AM »
I used Dow Corning DC-4 compound. It is a viscous silicone lubricant and is often used as an "O" ring lube in aircraft systems. I used plenty of it between the "O" rings also.

Try using the head and nuts to push the sleeve back down. It seems to be the best way.

Chris
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Doug

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2006, 05:26:46 AM »
I knew an old fellow who used propane to cool liners down and slid them into place on a detroit possibly a 71 series. Before anyone harps on me why this is bad its just a point I wanted to bring up. I knew a guy who cooled the liners as cold as he could get them. Vice versa could you use a little heat on the block and cool the liner to make it an easier fit?

Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2006, 05:37:49 PM »
Doug:

wont harp on why it is bad, for anyother reason than a detroit has to have the pistons loaded into the liner from the bottom side before the liner is installed in the block,,, you can do it the other way ... from the top but you end up wrecking the oil control rings as they cross the ports.

dry liners can be frozen in a dry ice bath, but these are wet liners and as such should need no cooling.

bob g
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Doug

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2006, 06:44:27 PM »
I wasn't there to see the old felow do this trick, nd I don't know for sure what engine it was ( Assuming the old cab over tractor he had ). Her wanted dry ice but out where we were you couldn't get it in time.

Thanks Bob, this clears up a point then. If you can't get it in with reasonable force it time to stop and ask why.


Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2006, 11:57:06 PM »
"If you can't get it in with reasonable force it time to stop and ask why."

exactly!

the first thing i would do on any engine, is to fit the liner first without orings to see that it will go down and bottom as needed.
some manufactures have upper press fit liners in that the upper lip is tight in the counterbore, i strongly suspect this is not the case in an indian listeroid, because of close tolerances needed.

so my bet is without orings the liner should drop right in and seat, if so then proceed with well lubricated orings and lower register bore, soap them up well.

then with a firm push with both hands (fingers inside the bore,) push down with the palms of your hand while giving a twist, and the liner will go in to bottom.

without that twist, getting the liner to go in is very difficult in most engines, i see no reason that a listeroid would be any different.

bob g
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Doug

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2006, 12:07:22 AM »
In that factory video I linked to you see a craftsman gently pushing a liner into a Petter block with a mechanical press. Does that send up a red flag Bob?

Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: piston cylinder
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2006, 12:21:52 AM »
no, that does not send up a red flag, necessarily... if all is lubed well, clean and straight

with a slight twist things align easily, and the amount of pressure to compress the orings is reduced. also the orings have less chance of being rolled or twisted

bob g
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