Author Topic: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.  (Read 1811 times)

Listerational

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Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« on: October 20, 2023, 10:20:04 PM »
Hello,

I am looking at some Grundfos hot water circulator pumps for the radiator on my Listeroid 10/1. The one that I am looking at is rated max temp of 150-degrees farenheit. Is that high enough to handle the ranges on my generator?

Thanks,

Jim

veggie

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2023, 03:49:17 PM »

You can place the pump on the return side of the system after the water has been cooled by the radiator.
The cooled water coming back to the engine usually does not exceed your max rating limit.
I use a standard Bell & Gosset water circulator on my Listeroid with no issues.

- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw
- Changfa S195 (Waiting for a project)

dkmc

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2023, 04:48:34 PM »

Seems odd as temps in hydronic heating systems can get up to 180-190F in normal operation.
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cujet

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2023, 07:46:08 PM »
I've been using Grundfos pumps with great results for decades now.
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Listerational

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2024, 04:33:39 PM »
Okay, well I am finally getting around to working on cooling my listeroid 10/1. I have installed a small radiator, a household fan for the radiator and a hot water heater circulating pump. I filled the radiator with a 50/50 solution of antifreeze and water.
My operating temperature on the engine block next to where antifreeze leaves the generator is 220-degrees farenheit after about 20 - miinutes of operation.

Is there anything else that I might want to try in order to bring the temp down some?

The circulating pump has 3 - speeds. I have it on the lowest speed in order to keep from adding too much pressure to the cooling system.

The fan is not pushing too much air through the radiator. The simplist test that I could do is install a more powerful fan.

The radiator is probably something that you would see in a small 4-cylinder car.


Thanks for the help..

broncodriver99

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2024, 06:39:44 PM »
What is the temperature coming out of the bottom of the radiator? Did you put your pump on the inlet or outlet of the engine?

ajaffa1

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2024, 11:59:23 AM »
Hi Listerational. How much load do you have on your 10/1? The more the load the more the fuel injected and the more heat that will need to be dissipated. A modern car radiator ought to be adequate if you consider that most small 4 cylinder engines only produce about 100 HP. So, in theory you have 10 times the cooling that is required, however your engine is stationary rather than going along the highway at 100 KM per hour, so it lacks the airflow normal in an automobile. Modern vehicles generally have a temperature sensor mounted in the top of the radiator, this is connected  to an electric fan so that your engine does not overheat while you are sat at the traffic lights. You might want to consider implementing a similar system.
At sea level water boils at 215 fahrenheit. Your engine is running at slightly higher than that so it ought to be boiling however a pressurised system will boil at a higher temperature. Lister/Listeroid engines were never designed for a pressurised cooling system, the cylinder head gasket isn`t upto the job.
You don`t say how your radiator is mounted. Most people assume that it should be mounted verticals as it is in your car. This is incorrect for a stationary engine, it is much better mounted at a 45 degree angle in a thermosyphon set up. This allows the thermosyphon to work while also allowing natural airflow through the radiator. In your case you have a water pump in the system so you should probably mount the radiator near to horizontal to achieve the maximum natural convection cooling through the unit.
I  am concerned that you have an electric water pump in your system. Does this have a bypass? Without a bypass your engine will quickly overheat in the event of a pump failure.

Bob

dkmc

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2024, 03:09:26 PM »
Modern vehicles generally have a temperature sensor mounted in the top of the radiator, this is connected  to an electric fan so that your engine does not overheat while you are sat at the traffic lights. You might want to consider implementing a similar system.
Bob

Any modern vehicle I've seen has the temp sensor for the fan mounted in the radiator near the bottom or inlet hose, but not in the top.
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cujet

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2024, 05:10:33 PM »
I ended up using an automotive 12V fan, and a 12V power supply plugged into the gen output. Works like a champ on my 20/2. My 6/1 has a Honda Gold Wing radiator and fan assy. It's also powered by a 12V power supply.

Marlinpjones.com is a good place to search for surplus power supplies.
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Powdermonkey

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2024, 12:06:28 AM »
Well Sir...I'm NOT telling you how to do things, but....

I strictly use NO thermostat, but a 50-gallon water tank (tall and thin) on a thermosyphon system.  A stripped down water heater, of the 50-gallon variety.  It's supported by about 3 courses of cinder blocks, and some heater hose.  Works great.  There ain't no pump, there ain't no electricity, there ain't no thermostat...there ain't nothing to break.  I run it for ~ 8 hours a day, in the Florida heat of the summer.  And....it's simple-stupid. 

ajaffa1

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2024, 11:45:06 AM »
Hi Powdermonkey, I`m sure it works very well in Florida. Try it somewhere where temperatures drop below freezing at night and you will be looking for a new cylinder block. Sufficient ethylene glycol antifreeze for a 50 gallon barrel is going to cost many hundreds of dollars.

Bob

BruceM

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2024, 06:08:57 PM »
 Powder Monkey has an ideal, keep it simple application for thermosiphon tank cooling in that he is running 8 hrs a day in a no-freeze location.  No antifreeze needed and the long time for getting up to temperature and potential increased carbon build up are not a problem for his application.

My application was for short runs, typically 30 minutes. (Pump water while running washing machine, or pump air for the shop, or a 30 minute bulk charge of my battery bank.)   I also have the issue of sub zero temperatures in winter which also make the tank method a poor choice ($) as ajaffa1 wisely notes.  I opted for the thermostat and a (exhaust induced draft- no fan required) radiator with thermosiphon flow because of my  anticipated short run times and a design goal to not require generator operation when operating the air compressor compressor only.  (I could not find affordable cast iron radiators here in AZ or I would have used one with a thermostat.)  I have further reduced de-coking labor by adding a water/methanol feed system.  I keep waiting for the cold idle knocking sound which used to signal time (at 200-300 hrs) for de-coking but now it never happens. 

The perfect cooling system for the CS is application and location specific.  (And the desires and design goals of the builder/designer.)  XYZer created a lovely portable CS design for thermosiphon and fanless oversized radiator with convection only air flow. Standard automotive style cooling setups with pump and fan can be more compact and lighter weight while also being quite practical and economical.  Cujet's portable twin CS design is one outstanding example.

Best Wishes,
Bruce M





Listerational

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2024, 01:34:49 AM »
Thank you all for the great advice. You have generously given me ideas to implement on my generator. Mounting the radiator horizontally sounds amazing. I can picture the air just pouring through the fins.

Bronco to answer your two questions

""What is the temperature coming out of the bottom of the radiator? Did you put your pump on the inlet or outlet of the engine?""

I dont remember the temperature exactly but I think it was in the high 100s. And the pump is on the inlet side of the engine (the lower one).

Ajaffa the radiator is mounted vertically like a car radiator but I will look into mounting it horizontally. Also, I do not have a bypass for the electric water circulating pump. I should put one in right away. Or, If I ventilate the radiator adequately should I just remove the pump and convert the system to a non-pressurized? Maybe just use the thermosyphon setup?

This is all awesome info to ponder.

Thanks,

Jim

Bolton Power Equipment

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Re: Hot Water Circulator Max Temp Rating.
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2024, 08:40:58 PM »
Hello All,

        I sell Listeroids and this problem with heat management comes up a lot. For starters 220F is too hot, should be 180F Max. The problem I've found with small automotive radiators is bleeding the air bubbles.  I find that the old NASCAR trick of feeding the engine coolant output into the bottom or the radiator works wonders. The bubbles automatically purge out the top. With the conventional plumbing of in the top and out the bottom on my 10/1 demo unit and the 180F thermostat stayed open, the electric fan never started and the recovery tank started over heating. Reverse the flow and the thermostat never opened releasing only the bleed volume through the closed thermostat. The fan started on a 50% duty cycle and the temp stayed at about 160F. Same load just different heat management.

Best
Graham Slieker