Author Topic: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2  (Read 1600 times)

listerclone

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Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« on: February 03, 2023, 09:23:32 AM »
Hi All.  I am a master-tech auto guy who is helping a friend with his CS 16-2.  It was only hitting on one cylinder and I started moving fuel injectors, etc. back and forth seeing if I could find the problem.  I adjusted a fuel pump incorrectly and broke the fuel pump cam shear pin.  I thought this was a genuine Lister and used a genuine Lister manual to disassemble.  I replaced the broken shear pin and when attempting to reinstall the cam I found that there were no marks on the gears.  Then the guy who runs Stationary Engine Parts told me if it doesn't have marks on the gears it is a Lister clone.
I have yet to find someone who can explain how to time this engine with no gear marks.
Hope someone here can help - Thanks
Daniel Bal
Hawaii Island

38ac

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2023, 12:36:34 PM »
Link to my Youtube channel and a video that explains it. On a twin you can use either cylinder but if you use #2 at TDC  the #1 crank throw. will be out of the way to install the idler gear.
https://youtu.be/irFF4LSZZfg
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38ac

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2023, 12:49:17 PM »
I should have added that when doing this on an assembled engine you usebtbe timing marks on the flywheels instead of looking down in the block as in the video amd its a real pain to get the idler installed. All in all it a whole lot easier to find marks or mark the gears prior to dissasembly as you are about to find out
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listerclone

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2023, 10:03:26 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply.  I watched your video and now have a lot of questions.
Is it possible to spend a few minutes talking on the phone?
Daniel Bal
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listerclone

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2023, 09:35:28 AM »
Hi.  I would be happy to initiate the call.  I just need a number and the time you might be willing to talk for 5 minutes.  Your time would be very much appreciated.
If speaking to you is not an option, I could write out questions as they come up.  If you would rather do that I will get started.

Thanks - Daniel Bal

Powdermonkey

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2023, 01:01:14 AM »
Get a degree wheel...like the BIG one staring you in the face (the flywheel!).  Mark it off at TDC, and ~ 20-24 BTDC.  Get a dial indicator and a stand.  Find TDC.  Mark it HEAVY on the wheel, referencing something good and solid on the base. 

Next- Find the START (0.050" rise) of the exhaust valve opening.  Find the END (0.050" before the base circle) of the intake closing.  Split the difference.  Make your cam position so that the center point coincides with TDC. 

Next- Set your squirt timing so that it STARTS to pump 20-24 degrees before TDC.  (It may be that the factory spec is 18-20 degrees...)...but IF you can get 24-26 degrees BTDC for the START, then your engine will run more efficiently.  I have found that IF you take a spare injector, and a spare high pressure line, and bend it so that it's attached to the actual pump AND lined up with the mark of TDC, then you can really hone in on the true timing....Make both pumps the same timing! 

listerclone

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2023, 04:36:46 AM »
Thanks to both of you for the suggestions, I am getting a clearer picture now.  Right now both of the big flywheels are removed as well as all the stuff you have to take off to remove the camshaft assembly.  It looks like my first job is to remove the idler gear and since this is a twin it's looks like I have to work through the rear cover.  38ac noted that it is very difficult to reinstall the idler gear with the piston and cylinder in place.  Is it worth it to remove the No. 2 cylinder assembly to make the idler gear easier?
Once the idler gear is out of the way I should be able to install the cam.  At this point I don't know if I should install the flywheel or not.  If I have removed the No. 2 piston/cylinder then I probably don't need to install the flywheel and can time the engine as in the video.  However, if I find that I can access the idler well enough with the piston installed but at top dead center, I probably won't remove it, and would then install the flywheel and mark it as powdermonkey suggested.
Once the engine is timed and the idler is back in I will start putting the fuel system back together.  I don't remember how it works but may be able to figure out your instructions once I get back into it.
PLease let me know if you think my logic has gone astray here, and thanks again.   Dan

38ac

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2023, 11:40:52 AM »
And the plot thickens. How did you get the camshaft out? I hope you tied the lifters up and didn't remove them!! You do not have to remove the cylinder block or the idler gear as long as you can find the timing mark in the flywheels. When the mark is straight up, centered in the block casting you are at TDC.  Next confirm that #1 , (which is the cylinder closest to the large cam cover and governor end of cam) is at TDC by looking in tbe crankcase. The flywheels are NOT the same and MUST be installed on the correct side.  Once you have confirmed all that look at the cam lobes and visually put them at overlap and put the cam in the engine and let the lifters down on it. Now rock the engine back and forth until the lifters are at overlap as discribed on my video and look at the timing mark. If its at TDC then you are OK, if not leave the engine where it is and mark thee cam gear where it meshes. NOT the idler, the CAM gear. Then pull the camshaft out far enough that the gears are out of mesh. Then rotate the engine to TDC and reinstall the camshaft with the marked teeth in mesh. Done, your in time. Confirm by rotating back while looking again. Past that I assume you realize that the #2 injection cam lobe is held on with a tapered pin and must be correctly installed?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 12:24:54 PM by 38ac »
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listerclone

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2023, 03:07:20 AM »
Ha!  The plot is already pretty thick at my end.  Last question first.  I read in the Lister manual that the shear pins were #6 taper pins.  I found them at McMaster-Carr and after three orders managed to get the right ones.  I had two to replace.  After hammering the pins tight I mushroomed both ends to look exactly like the ones that already there.
Boy, if I could time this engine without removing the idler gear or the cylinder that would make me a much happier camper.  I have a few questions.  When standing in front of the engine on the oil pump side, No. 1 is on the right?  I assumed the opposite.
I did not tie up the lifters but they are still in there.  I wasn't worried because the manual says to use heavy grease to hold them up, and I assumed it wasn't difficult.  Before I do anything else I will secure them.
I wasn't aware that there is an existing TDC mark on the flywheel.  Powdermonkey suggested I would have to mark it myself.  Where on the flywheel would I look for this mark?
I think I understand everything up until marking the cam gear.  It seems like you are saying the cam gear will mesh with the idler gear exactly the same before and after turning the engine to TDC.  How is that possible?  Also, don't know what this means, "Confirm by rotating back and looking again."
Thanks for the help - Dan

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2023, 04:53:04 AM »
A spring loaded cloths pin works to hold up the lifters.
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38ac

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2023, 04:12:05 PM »
Ha!  The plot is already pretty thick at my end.  Last question first.  I read in the Lister manual that the shear pins were #6 taper pins.  I found them at McMaster-Carr and after three orders managed to get the right ones.  I had two to replace.  After hammering the pins tight I mushroomed both ends to look exactly like the ones that already there.There is no need to mushroom the taper pins
Boy, if I could time this engine without removing the idler gear or the cylinder that would make me a much happier camper.  I have a few questions.  When standing in front of the engine on the oil pump side, No. 1 is on the right?  I assumed the opposite.Correct
I did not tie up the lifters but they are still in there.  I wasn't worried because the manual says to use heavy grease to hold them up, and I assumed it wasn't difficult.  Before I do anything else I will secure them.
I wasn't aware that there is an existing TDC mark on the flywheel.  Powdermonkey suggested I would have to mark it myself.  Where on the flywheel would I look for this mark? I guess I'm a bit confused if you have a CS or a clone. All CS are marked, most clones are not. The marks are on the face of the rim. Sand it off and look for a line. This is TDC when straight up. About 4 inches from the line there will be a lightning bolt. It is always very faint and you must look hard to see it. This is the spill timig mark for injection. Remember the flywheels must be installed on the correct side of the engine AND with the correct side out.   .
I think I understand everything up until marking the cam gear.  It seems like you are saying the cam gear will mesh with the idler gear exactly the same before and after turning the engine to TDC.  How is that possible?  Also, don't know what this means, "Confirm by rotating back and looking again."I'm not sure to to put it any more clear than the first time, I didn't go to school for teaching, LOL. In order to put the engine in time without removing the gear you must find the correct position for the cam. Forget about the crankshaft at this stage its not material. In order to find the cam position it must be in the engine unless you want to spend a week building a jig? With the cam installed turn the crankshaft until the #1 cylinder lifters are in the position described before by me and Powder monkey. Forget about the crank position it makes no difference at this juncture Now that you have the cam in the correct position you must mark THE CAM GEAR it so it can be reinstalled when the crankshaft is in the correct position.  You can see the gear mesh to the idler on the RH side. Either mark one tooth or two, then take a picture with your phone of how those marks line up on the idler gear. Next pull the cam out far enough that its out of mesh with the idler. Next  move the crankshaft to TDC. Then install the camshaft so the marked teeth are meshing the idler same as before, NOT HE SAME IDLER TEETH but the marked cam gear teeth meshing the idler gear in the same manner as when you marked them. Finally check your work by rocking the engine back and forth near TDC while watching the lifters. Stop when they are correctly positioned and then look at your TDC mark. It should be at TDC
Thanks for the help - Dan
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 06:09:05 PM by 38ac »
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38ac

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2023, 05:33:55 PM »
Here is a gear set sitting on my bench and showing a mark on the cam gear. I would use a punch mark instead of a marker in real use. As you can see the mark easily can be remeshed correctly no matter how the idler gear would be turned. Remember its the cam gear we are worried about, NOT the exact teeth on the idler which will change when you rotate the crankshaft. You can see this gear relationship with the parts in the engine block.
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38ac

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2023, 05:39:39 PM »
Here are the flywheel marks on a 16/2 currently in my shop. Notice the 2? tvus means they are used for the #2 cylinder. Not all flywheels will have the #2 marks, just #1. If your flywheels are unmarked then you will have to find TDC and mark them
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 06:06:25 PM by 38ac »
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listerclone

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2023, 08:26:33 PM »
This is some great information, thanks.  I will be working on this engine in a few hours and finally feel like I know what I am doing.  Will let you know how it goes.   Dan

sirpedrosa

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Re: Installing Cam on a CS 16-2
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2023, 01:16:56 AM »
Hi Dan, Gentles

If it helps you can either take a look at my thread.

But remember 38AC (Butch) is a Guru, and only a few have his knowldge!

See here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg102265#msg102265

Cheers
VP
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Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
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