Lister CD8 Diesel

[38ac]

OK
wear vs machining tolerances and nominal sizes

Nominal size-
 This would be the inside diameter of a bearing or other female part of a moving assembly (aka cylinder liner). NEVER use nominal size as judgement of the usability of the male part. Only the female parts.

 Machining tolerance-
 In British manufacturing of that era the clearance of a rotating or sliding assembly was machined into the male part. In other words the crankshaft (or a piston).  Figuring the allowable running clearances is as has been suggested. Its the manufacturing tolerance of the crankshaft (or the piston) at its maximum and minimum allowable sizes subtracted from the shaft (or cylinder) nominal size  Thus you have two figures max and min. The inside diameter of a new bearing installed in the rod (IF the big end is still round AND the bearing is made correctly) should be the listed nominal diameter and when you subtract the two shaft figures that's your running clearance range with new or reground parts.

Wear-
  The .003 wear figure quoted is ADDED to the maximum clearance of new parts  to give you the maximum allowable running  clearance. And yes it is quite large as compared to modern standards BUT. also remember that does not mean is OK to reuse parts that have .003 wear! very important detail there. That means at .003 wear you fix it, not put it together as OK.  If it has .002 wear and you put it back together expect that you will soon be back in it. Also remember that wear takes into consideration both parts. A bearing with .002 wear installed on a shaft with .002 wear would be .004 wear and unacceptable.

 As compared to the standard system of rebuild clearances used in the USA its confusing until one studies it.  When I mentioned this to a British colleague who worked for Lister his rather gruff reply was "Lister assumed that if one had his fingers in an engine that he knew what the hell he was doing!"  Uh OK

I hope I have clarified the technical data sheet specs and how to use them  and not further confused things!!

If I was trying to save a worn piston the last thing I would do is take more metal from it to make it shiny and round.  Scuffing is composed of low spots where metal was removed and (usually) high spots where metal was deposited. Removing the high spots is advisable but not the low.  All depends on what one is going to do with the engine.  For a work engine the specs should be held to. If its a  play toy then you can get away with a lot and it will still provide running enjoyment.

[cobbadog]

Hi 38c,
I had to read your reply a couple of times to follow what you are saying and is taken on board, thanks. It is funny how some people react to statements and can be even harder when it is the difference between Countries. I find something that when on a British Forum they call parts by different names and it is not until you have been reading them for a while that you automatically understand what they are saying. Just as an example a dynamo is a generator and it could have been something like a misunderstanding as to why your mate said  "Lister assumed that if one had his fingers in an engine that he knew what the hell he was doing!". Well I have seen just the opposite over the years. Way too many butchers have had their hands inside engines and not know what the heck they were doing.
Thanks for your reply
Cheers Cobba

[cobbadog]

Today was an easy day cleaning up the 2 long (26.5" long) head studs and using lock nuts and Loctite put them firmly back in place. I am yet to start cleaning out the water jackets that look bad but have seen worse.
During some cleaning up I remembered to have a look for the timing marks on the flywheel. I found them both, TDC and Spill Timing. Then I marked them using a silver oil pen to see them better then realised that once the radiator is back on you will not see them at all. So I used a set square and transferred them to the outside edge and used a cold chisel to imitate the same marks.

[cobbadog]

Well I got good news and bad news about parts supply. I can get ring sets once I confirm the accurate sizes which I have done. 3/16" for both top compression and oil rings and 1/8" for the middle compression rings. No gasket sets available now even though they are on the website. Unsure about the big end bearing shells.
So I have put the conrod back into the piston after checking it is straight and not bent using a dial indicator gauge. It certainly helped with those tiny chamfers on the end of the gudgeon pin. Pin is secure in the piston and piston rocks on the pin. Started cleaning up some of the outside cover plates. Will look at the head tomorrow and may even drop the valves and lap them in. Also need to start on cleaning up the rust in the water jackets soon.

[ajaffa1]

Good work Cobba, yes you are never going to get this back to the same standard as 38ac (basically new) but you will have a very nice running engine to take to vintage engine rallies. If it smokes a bit and has a little piston slap that`s all part of the fun. I was at the rusty iron festival when they beat the world record for the number of vintage engines running at the same time, the noise and fumes were probably a terrible health hazard but I survived and enjoyed the experience.

When I was an apprentice in the RAF, I learned how to resilver worn bearing shells by recoating them and then hand scrapping them using engineers blue on the crankshaft .I haven`t done it in 45 years and no I`m not volunteering, but it can be done, they don`t look that bad to need replacing, no copper showing.

A nice collection of cleaned parts beginning to accumulate, What does the head gasket look like? Could be difficult to replace locally if it`s had it. They do sell them on the UK stationary engine site but they are not cheap at 66 pounds (about 130 dollars plus shipping).

How are you going to remove the limescale from the water passages? I`ve tried lots of different ways and now swear by brick acid (hydrochloric acid used for cleaning mortar stain off bricks). It`s quick and easy but will burn holes in you, it`s also the best thing I`ve ever found for cleaning limescale out of dirty old toilet bowls. Don`t  leave it too long, it will eat steel as well as limescale and don`t breath the fumes!

I wish I still lived in NSW, I`d love to come and give you a hand but too much to do in Tasmania. Not quite the retirement I was expecting, still working 70+ hours a week, just not getting paid for it.

Keep up the good work, NO SURRENDER. 

Bob

[cobbadog]

Hi Bob,
The Rusty Iron Rally is our Club and we had our little Farm Pumper there for that record attempt as well. We do some of the scruitineering for our Club on Rally day. Only 9 engines on that day did not make the distance and considering the average age of the engines on display that is testimony to how well built these old engines were.  In our compound there was a small Petter diesel that really made me wonder how on earth it started never mind run and taking care of the mosquito control with thick black smoke but it did make the distance.
Before I stripped Ray down he would only smoke right at start up and then all clear. As for cleaning out the rust and scale I always start by poking screw drivers and anything that fits down there, even coat hanger with a hook locked in the battery drill chuck and give it a run. I do have a bottle of hydrochloric acid as I have been using it on many things steel related. A long time back I had the drain tap out so will remove it again to allow the big bits to escape.
If this was going back to work then yes it would be a far more detailed rebuild but being a rally engine going out on ce or twice a year and clocking up 6 hours a day does not justify the expense of going all the way b ut I do appreciate the input. The old head gasket is in good condition with no creases and could go around again with some copper sealant. If I can source a new one locally then I would do it. The full gasket set from Old Timer Engines was listed at $55.00 inc GST but today I was told they are not available so asked if he had just  a head gasket and I will make all the paper ones no problems.
We both retired last Christmas (12 months ago) and it is all bullshit that you get a rest. We rarely do some jobs and I am limiting that to some very good customers that supported me over the 27 years I was in business and the same for Dee with her curtain making. We have been able to spend about 4 months all up in 6-8 week blocks away with the caravan and the next run for up to 8 weeks starts in February.  I have striped the tray on our 8 ton beavertail Hino and painted it up again, dug a 60 metre trench by hand which worked out to be 5 tons, load it into the box trailer and dump it then lay the pipe and gravel about another 4 tons. All with 2 stuffed shoulders. Been fixing the guttering around the house and all the sheds plus tried sealing the floor in one shed but have had no rain since to see if that worked. Now Ray is occupying some time and I enjoy it too.

[38ac]

Re: engine butchers,
 have you followed my 16/2 thread? LOL.

You are also indeed correct about having to factor in cultural differences when dealing with people, been a hard lesson for me as things become more global.

Your head gasket problems are easily solved by John at Gaskets To Go.
Look his web site and send him an email with your predicament. I have a large order in with him for Bamford joints

[cobbadog]

Yes 38c I have been reading and commenting on your project of nightmares. I think all the companies/suppliers you haev mentioned are in the USA and freight would outweight any benefits in getting it here, There are a number of gaskets manufacturers here in Oz and if my supplier cannot find a single gasket then I have a one in good condition that can be used as a template. Closest to me is 30 klms south in Sydney.
The differences can be very interesting and eye opening and I find that it helps me understand things somewhat better if only I can remember it all.
I did do more today by cleaning up the outside of the head and cleaning out threads. Fortunately I have a good set of taps and dies in BSW and BSF as well as Metric and Imperial. Will post pics tomorrow

[broncodriver99]

I believe gaskets to go is out of Thailand. He is from the US but lives there. He is who makes the modern composite gaskets for the CS.

https://gasketstogo.com/

May be worth having a look.

[cobbadog]

OK, sounds great. I find it confuisng when online and things are suggested but not sure what part of the world we are talking about. Will try and follow it up tomorrow.

[cobbadog]

I started cleaning out the threads using my small set of BSF taps and dies. Then fitted the remaining head stud in the block and also the one in the head for the rocker gear. Is the gear on the camshaft only used in petrol engines for the magneto as it does not drive anything here?

[cobbadog]

Here you can see my small set of BSF taps n dies. I also have a set of BSW in another box. The bottom pic is the Ranex Rustbuster by Bondall that I use for rust conversion. It is based on phosphoric acid like brickies use to clean the bricks at the end of a job. Cheap enough at Bunnings. You can see the tape I put on one of the outlets and the same on the opposite side to hold the acid in overnight. I ran out of straight Ranex so topped it up with water. End result was the same, rust converted to something more stable.

[cobbadog]

Today I ordered the new set of rings and may be here by the end of this week, if not soon after that. I have had a reply from 'gasketstogo' and was asked for some extra information which I sent this morning so may hear back from them soon as well.
So just incase I cannot get another gasket I decided to clean the original one up as it does not look too bad but has been under torque for some time. You can see how it looked from when I removed it to now.

[broncodriver99]

Is it a copper sheet gasket or a multi layer gasket? If it is a copper sheet you may be able to just anneal it and reuse it worst case. I'm not sure if a multi layer gasket can be annealed for resue. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can make a suggestion about that.

[cobbadog]

It is copper top n bottom, unknown in the middle. Hopefully not asbestos