Author Topic: Lister CD8 Diesel  (Read 1389 times)

cobbadog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2022, 09:25:24 PM »
Yes, Bob. I will double check those numbers but when I looked closer at the it looks as if it was binding plus there is an indication of scrapes on the bore that look like shiney spots. I can't see how I can undo the other side of the big end bearing cap unless that side come off. I think it is tight enough to get to the one I can see.
Coopernook - the centre of our Universe.

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1626
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2022, 10:23:02 PM »
If it`s got to come off it`s got to come off. I guess we will work out how to set the timing later, are there timing marks on the flywheel? You can add cutting gaskets to you to do list, I doubt anyone has a gasket set.

Bob

cobbadog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2022, 04:49:36 AM »
Well the large cover does simply lift off and not effect any timing issues. I took so much care removing it as not having a manual to guide me this is what you have to do. I removed the large spring that attaches to the arm for the pump and this gave me easy access to the big end bolt on this side of the engine. Now with the piston out I can see what was locking up, the 'pisstin''. The scuffs on one side are not as bad as the other where it looks like it may have some chromium attached to it. I have removed the rings from the piston and online piston ring sets as STD are available as is a full gasket kit including a copper head gasket from Old Timer Engines in Qld. I now need to start cleaning all the parts up and make some accurate measurements and place an order for parts.
1st pic you can see what is behind door #2.
2nd pic shows the better side of the piston.
3rd pic shows the bad side of the piston.
Coopernook - the centre of our Universe.

cobbadog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2022, 04:56:44 AM »
Next is the big end bearing and bore.
1st pic shows the Big End cap half of the bearing.
2nd pic shows the conrod side.
3rd pic shows the bore. Not a good pic at all because of the light and no matter what I did could not get any better.
Basically there are some vertical scuffs but it is not too bad I dont think and should get away with a light hone depending on the numbers I find.
Again a lot to clean up here too so all this starts tomorrow and the wish list may continue.
Coopernook - the centre of our Universe.

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1626
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2022, 07:45:49 AM »
Nice work Cobbadog, getting that door off was a leap of faith. Did you find out how the piston is supposed to be lubricated? I can see how a wet sump system should provide enough splash lubrication but with a dry sump? Was this originally a dry sump unit or was it modified later?
Glad to hear Rob at Old Timer Engines has most of the bits you need.
I`m still confused as to how the bore is up to 7 thou undersize, has it been lined badly? I doubt Lister would have built it like that, perhaps it was originally built with a wet liner and the seals have failed allowing corrosion to constrict the bore size.
The big end crank journal looks good as do the lobes on the camshaft. I`d replace the bearing shells but you are not going to be relying on this engine for your main source of power so they are fine.
That piston is badly scored but will probably clean up OK, I`ve refitted seized 2 stroke pistons that looked worse than that without a problem.
Keep up the good work.

Bob

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1626
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2022, 07:53:30 AM »
Just a thought, what size is the piston? The bore looks like it still has some of the Listard chrome plating. Were these bored to 4.5" and then chrome plated? Perhaps a 10 thou coating with an undersized piston.

Bob

cobbadog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2022, 10:29:57 AM »
Hi Bob,
It took me so long to unndo the bolts then carefully remove the cover peeping inside to see if anything was under tension and fly out at me. Fortunatley it is a simple cover and the pump and cam yiming are untouched, That large spring for the pump was easier than expected to remove or maybe I have done too many brake shoes on drum brakes over the years.
At the moment ignore thos numbers I posted. My new chinesium internal gauges told lies.What was happening is I would compress the ends and lock them in place. Then unlock them and let them fly out and then I would start to lock them remove it and take the measurement. It was not until today that I read those numbers again after having so much crap run around in whats left of my ageing grey matter. I discovered the tighter I did them up they would pull the ends in hence giving me those numbers. With more patience and time I will get new numbers and todays numbers show 0.003-0,004" wear in the bore at mid and near where the top of the piston rings would sit at the bottom of the stroke. Of course TDC n BDC read STD 4.5" which answers your question of STD size.
This is a CDM model meaning 'marine' model which run dry sump and wet sump depending on application. Now Lister used the marine model for boats and gen sets and this one being the high speed model would almost have to of been made as a genset from new and that was its job at the farm it came from.
The big end  bearing is not on the website as a spare but I sent Rob an email today asking for a STD ring set, full gasket set and if he had a big end bearing. I am not concerned about the big end bearing really but asked just incase. I fully intend to put the piston in the lathe and tidy it up and make it respectable. I had to machine the skirt of the piston in the McDonald Super Imperial Diesel I brought back from the dead and after all the neigh sayers telling me you cannot and should not machine a piston and never the skirt I went ahead and did it with great success. After posting the pics of it in the lathe and what I had to fix then a video of it running it was funny as there were no more saying you cant do that. So this one will be tidied up and new rings and thrown back in.
I am guessing as I do not have much info on this engine only they told me where and what it did on a farm so previous history is a total guess. I have a lot of cleaning up to do and might make a start on that tomorrow but need to do some work around the yard and drag a goat out n cut grass, just dont know which goat yet.
Thanks for your onging interest and ideas.
Coopernook - the centre of our Universe.

broncodriver99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2022, 03:25:24 PM »
Attached is the only thing resembling a manual I could find.

broncodriver99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2022, 03:35:12 PM »
There are some specifications for how to measure the ring gap and what it should be in that manual. I could not find any wear limit data on the CD or CE engines but have wear data on a lot of other Lister engines and most all of them have the bores finished at size (nominal 4.5") -0.000/+0.001" Lister made up any clearnace needed in the piston size. I believe the CD/CE engines have a lot in common with the CS and JP engines. I will see if I have any wear data on the piston/cylinder.

That piston looks to me like it was either stuck at one point or a load of carbon made it's way between the piston and cylinder.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 04:35:24 PM by broncodriver99 »

broncodriver99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2022, 04:45:30 PM »
I went through the wear limit data I have and below is what I have on other engines of similar design with a 4.5" bore. The CS 8/1, JP, and JK are pretty much identical. I would think the JP/JK numbers are what would have been used on a CD/CE engine. I used the 8/1 numbers as it has an aluminum piston like your CD. The 6/1 with it's iron piston has different specifications.

Nominal size 4.500"
Manufacturing limits(New):
-Cylinder: -0.000/+.0.002"
-Piston Top Land: -0.023/-0.025"
-Piston Skirt: -0.007/-0.008 for CS and -0.006/-0.007 for JP/JK
Max Difference(New):
-Piston Top Land: 0.027"
-Piston Skirt: 0.010" for CS and 0.009" for JP/JK
Allowable Wear:
Cylinder: 0.004"
Piston: 0.005"
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 04:47:17 PM by broncodriver99 »

cobbadog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2022, 10:30:01 PM »
EXCEPTIONAL work thanks broncodriver.
All of that is very helpful. Especially the wear limits. I also found that the max wear recommended for the big end is 0.003" which is not a lot. Heading out the back to do some cleaning up. It was good info about too much oil pressure can cause a lock up as well. Also to check the oil galleries in the bearing and crank.
Coopernook - the centre of our Universe.

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1626
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2022, 11:57:25 PM »
Thanks Broncodriver, just what is needed to get the old girl going again.

Bob

broncodriver99

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2022, 12:36:49 AM »
I too saw the 0.003" max clearance in the manual and thought that a little tight. I am guessing Lister is stating what it should be new or reconditioned. I remember hearing an old rule of thumb that ideal clearance is 0.001" for every inch diameter of the crank pin.

Here is the info I have on the big end:

Crank Pin Diameter: 2.5" Nominal for CS and 3" Nominal for JP/JK/JS engines
Manufacturing Limits(New):
Crank Pin Diameter: -0.002"/-0.0025" For all engines
Big End Bearing: +0.0005"/-0.0005" for CS and +0.001"/+0.0015" for JP/JK/JS Engines
Allowable Wear on the Big End Bearing: 0.007" for the CS and 0.005" for the JP/JK/JS Engines

So, it looks to me like you have a little more than 0.003" of clearance on the big end to play with. If I am reading right the absolute max would be somewhere around 0.008" which seems a little high. I am guessing the numbers Lister is providing are for measuring the crank pin and big end each directly and then calculating the clearance as these were the days before plastigauge. Nowadays you just bolt it all together and get a much more precise reading with a piece of plastigauge. I wouldn't be worried if you are in the 0.003-0.005" range, much past that and it is probably time to consider grinding the crankpin if necessary or maybe just fitting a new bearing if the crank pin measures within range.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 12:40:59 AM by broncodriver99 »

cobbadog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2022, 05:02:38 AM »
Once again thanks for the ongoing support.
I decided to play with the piston today and removed the conrod and took the piston to the lathe to clean it up. I used a dial indicator gauge and it showed 0.003" out of round. So I had previously washed the piston down with degreaser and then started with the wire brush while it turned about in the lathe. I then used a power hacksaw blade to start cleaning out the ring grooves. Finally I used some fine wet n dry paper on a flat file to polish up the skirt and then the top of the piston. This poor piston had had more hits than Elvis on the top but cleaned up ok. The area that looked as if there was chromium on the skirt also cleaned up fairly well but room for improvement. Tomorrow I want to drop the piston in the bore and check the clearance of skirt to bore using feeler gauges. Then I will decide whether to put it back in the lathe and make it round/er again. The other thing I read on the parts supplier is that they made 4 different ring sets and now I know why. The top compression and bottom oil rings are wider than the 2 middle compression rings. But what I took out was a thin oil ring the same width as the 2 middle compression rings. When I removed the gudgeon pin it broke a small amount of alloy out from around the hole, very small so I have filed that to be a bit smoother.
Coopernook - the centre of our Universe.

cobbadog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
    • View Profile
Re: Lister CD8 Diesel
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2022, 05:24:29 AM »
I tightened up the cap so I can measure the bore of the big end bearing tomorrow and then cleaned up the conrod . I went to put the gudgeon pin back into the little end bush and it was as if it was biting a bit. So I stuck it in the lathe and machined the tiniest of a chamfer on each end. Now it fits both sides of the piston and the little end just right. There is no movement in the gudgeon and top bush and it is a firm fit in the piston so nothing to do here. Hopefully when the Lister spare parts man, Rob, gets over the Festive Season I will be able to confirm the parts I do need. I will measure the journal on the crank tomorrow and compare that to the bearing and see what sort of a shock I get, good or bad.
Coopernook - the centre of our Universe.