Author Topic: Welding off the Lister  (Read 645 times)

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Welding off the Lister
« on: August 08, 2022, 10:43:54 PM »
Hi All

So, four years into the barn rebuild I've got the Lister,CS 6/1  mounted on a couple of steel beams and driving a Stanford 8.1, alternator up here, I squeezed it into my homemade back box and the '84 Ford 6610 lifted it, I've no idea how much it weighs, but as I had to cover 2 k on the main road I backed it up with a couple of ratchet straps, just incase.....

It wasn't a comfortable couple of k!

My question is,

Could I weld using 2.5mm / 3/32" rods and a decent inverter with the above combination?

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3014
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2022, 02:29:21 AM »
Hi Stef,
The CS 6/1 is a bit puny for a welding source.  3/32 rods will be right on the edge; they run about 26 volts at 95 amps,  2470 watts (just over the sustained output of the 6/1) but you must also allow some losses in the inverter so you'd really need near  3000W continuous; that's more than the 6/1 can typically do.

No harm in trying since you're engine and not generator limited. You might try bumping up the rpms slightly if your flywheels can handle it safely.




dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2022, 07:04:26 AM »
Hi Bruce

Thanks for yet another swift reply!

 I got to the same answer, but, given my well know lack of experience / knowledge / and confidence with all things electronic it's good to have my hand held, I imagine you worked it our a lot swifter than I did!

I know the CS is good for around 3000w 'cos I rigged a bank of 6 x 500w lamps as a test load some while back, it got smokey but didn't die. I've got room for a few more revs as I'm running at 50Hhz at the moment. The fly wheels are original Lister and have no apparent damage.

I guess it's which folds first, the inverter or the AVR. I also have a big old air cooled industrial welder it's been wired for 220v single phase since I've had it, would this be a better / safer option?

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2022, 08:41:01 AM »
Hi Stef, I did a lot of welding using my ST2 7KVA SOM, no problems at all, except that the sudden demand for electricity when striking an arc was too quick for the governor and the genny would bog down a little.
In Australia, domestic electricity outlets are fused at 10 amps (2400 watts), the small inverter welders that are readily available will happily run on this and can use a 2.4mm welding rod but it can be hard to strike an arc.
Welding rods come in smaller sizes: 1mm, 1.6mm and 2mm your CS would certainly handle these and would probably cope with a 2.4 rod at a push. I am unsure how quickly the governor would be able to compensate for the sudden full output demand but the heavy flywheels should help prevent the sudden voltage drop than can extinguish your arc, just after you struck it.
Your Stamford should easily be able to handle 3KVA, just be very careful not to stall the engine with a heavy load on it. As the engine speed slows the output voltage drops, the load remains the same and so the current increases. I have seen a lot of burned out petrol generators caused by the fuel running out under a heavy load.
I don`t think it makes a lot of difference if you are using an invertor welder or the older transformer welder, the load will be very similar.

Bob

mihit

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2022, 10:03:45 AM »
With every step of the thing, you incur more losses. Trying to run a spinny thing, to a generaty thing, to a con/in-iverter thing, to a transformer thing... And a "standard" of conversion efficiency is 80% So... 80% of 80% of 80% of 80%....

A 6/1 running at nominal is 6HP = 4474W or 4.7kW. (*0.80)   You can tap the motor out another few hundred RPM for more power. (minus the losses)
I think an extra 50 RPM gave the 3/1 another 50HP but sorry I can't remember the maths behind that.
I don't know what the stamford head will do, or how it's coupled.

Personally, with that engine I'd be looking to the hell rectifier setup (skipping inversion/reversion/conversion) and running DC welds straight off. I'd be surprised if you could stall it on 2.5mm rods.

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2108
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2022, 12:52:19 PM »
. I have seen a lot of burned out petrol generators caused by the fuel running out under a heavy load.


Bob

Yessir Bob, my little operation sees all kinds of small engine problems and lots of non working generators. My first question is always Did you run it out of fuel under load? To which they almost always answer, Uh no,, but would that hurt it? 😆  Sometines they are lucky and it takes out the regulator, other times it cooks windings, I think it depends on how fast it dies as it runs out of fuel?  Anyway I quit allowing people to leave the burned out ones here as the junknpile grew out of hand,😆
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2022, 08:01:24 PM »
FWIW as someone who has an off-grid property, and a few Lister, and who does quite a bit of welding . . . this is my opinion

(and as others have commented)  the load of striking an arc, the possibility of damage, the lack of portability with the Lister, the value of the gen head you may burn out - taking all these things into consideration, about six years ago I paid $450 for a 9kVa Chinese petrol generator.  It runs the welder easily, it's portable-ish.  It is unfailingly reliable (although it does have an EPA-complicated carb design - thanks Uncle Sam) and it costs nothing to run for an hour here or there

I reckon that's a safer and better option.  The other day I loaded up the Markon head on the Lister (doing something unrelated to this) and, listening to the engine note change and the revs "droop" a bit, I felt I was doing both the Lister and the Markon a dis-service

I have played with those little Chinese Honda-clone "Chonda" generators almost daily in my work for the last decade (I own six or eight personally, and we have another six or seven in the depot here) and I have a lot of respect for their cheapness and their ability to do a job.  Hand on heart I can say I have never seen one "blow" up  - although they will if abused, of course

They are much-derided as "Screamers" in some groups - but really they're just a machine to do a job.  If you understand them and are comfortable with basic maintenance - then they are a good option.  It's easy to move one around the place in the boot of the station wagon and, when it's where I want it,  I park the wagon in front of it so it cuts out a chunk of the noise

You do need about 7/8000 watts for the welder to run effortlessly and for the generator to have a long life

Just my $0.02

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2022, 09:35:33 PM »
Hi All

Bob

Hope all is well down in Taz....

Thanks for the encouraging noises, I'll drag some more kit up here and give it a go, I'm hoping to put a five speed gearbox in my 88" Land Rover next month and that'll involve knocking up new engine mounts as the later box is around 150mm longer, I should have bought a bigger truck!

Mike

That's a good shout, a quick scout around here and they seem a bit dear, still I'm going to go back to the UK at the end of the month, who knows what I can find at the Great Dorset Steam fair...

Cheers
Stef



Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2022, 01:14:54 AM »
Hi All

Bob

Hope all is well down in Taz....

Thanks for the encouraging noises, I'll drag some more kit up here and give it a go, I'm hoping to put a five speed gearbox in my 88" Land Rover next month and that'll involve knocking up new engine mounts as the later box is around 150mm longer, I should have bought a bigger truck!

Mike

That's a good shout, a quick scout around here and they seem a bit dear, still I'm going to go back to the UK at the end of the month, who knows what I can find at the Great Dorset Steam fair...

Cheers
Stef


Stef you could always sell the Landie & retire . . .

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/land-rover/other/listing/3683250737?bof=vLrQ2Oc0

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/land-rover/other/listing/3572666400?bof=vLrQ2Oc0

:)

Powdermonkey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2022, 11:16:39 AM »

Funny!  I refer to my "Predator" 4k generator (Harbor Freight), that I use as emergency back-up when a Lister's down, as "The Little Screamer"! 





FWIW as someone who has an off-grid property, and a few Lister, and who does quite a bit of welding . . . this is my opinion

(and as others have commented)  the load of striking an arc, the possibility of damage, the lack of portability with the Lister, the value of the gen head you may burn out - taking all these things into consideration, about six years ago I paid $450 for a 9kVa Chinese petrol generator.  It runs the welder easily, it's portable-ish.  It is unfailingly reliable (although it does have an EPA-complicated carb design - thanks Uncle Sam) and it costs nothing to run for an hour here or there

I reckon that's a safer and better option.  The other day I loaded up the Markon head on the Lister (doing something unrelated to this) and, listening to the engine note change and the revs "droop" a bit, I felt I was doing both the Lister and the Markon a dis-service

I have played with those little Chinese Honda-clone "Chonda" generators almost daily in my work for the last decade (I own six or eight personally, and we have another six or seven in the depot here) and I have a lot of respect for their cheapness and their ability to do a job.  Hand on heart I can say I have never seen one "blow" up  - although they will if abused, of course

They are much-derided as "Screamers" in some groups - but really they're just a machine to do a job.  If you understand them and are comfortable with basic maintenance - then they are a good option.  It's easy to move one around the place in the boot of the station wagon and, when it's where I want it,  I park the wagon in front of it so it cuts out a chunk of the noise

You do need about 7/8000 watts for the welder to run effortlessly and for the generator to have a long life

Just my $0.02

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2022, 01:59:56 PM »
Hi Mike

That's not dear, in NZ dollars

Try this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284904772551?hash=item4255a5d3c7:g:D64AAOSwHPVipc2B

In GB pounds!

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

dieselspanner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2022, 03:54:52 PM »
Hi All

So, thinking about Mihit's suggestion ref ditching all the in betweens and welding straight from the alternator, how about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu_n1L84BRg

it looks reasonable, and along with the suggestions in the comments below, could be a way head. driving an alternator pulley off the outside of Lister flywheel

is going to get the alternator into the 5000rpm range, and the Lister has three times the output of the motor in the clip.........

All comments, derision and Land Rover lovers welcome!!

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3014
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2022, 04:54:03 PM »
He's not just very bad at welding.  He's seriously technically impaired.
Nothing about the project makes any sense technically or  financially.
First he throws away the built in, fan cooled 3 phase rectifier (6 diodes), then he adds an external 3 phase rectifier on a heatsink.

His power source is a 1 HP motor ?!  Obviously grossly inadequate.  3/32 rod needs 24V at 90 amps absolute minimum.
How do you get 2160W from a 1 HP motor?  You don't. So he's limited to 1/16 inch rods?

I also note that he is using an AC powered DC supply to provide rotor excitation.  Good grief, what a frig. Welders can be had for about $100.  He's spent way more than that already.

The roughly 17% conversion losses are well worth it to have a real welder that will maintain your set welding amps and is designed to start and maintain arc stability. 

I agree that the Lister CS is a poor choice for a portable welder as others have noted.  Portable screamers are designed for just that- light, compact.  Earplugs work.  Propane portables have a slightly lesser bark and have the advantage of being able to sit unused with no fuel issues, unlike gasoline.  For shop power, with occasional welding, I'd like the quiet of a well muffled, stationary CS, but I'd put in an aluminum piston and find some suitable flywheels to make it an 8/1.  Then you've got the power for your larger motors and also any welder.




mikenash

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 930
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2022, 08:18:08 PM »
Hi Mike

That's not dear, in NZ dollars

Try this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284904772551?hash=item4255a5d3c7:g:D64AAOSwHPVipc2B

In GB pounds!

Cheers
Stef

OK Stef.  I'll see you your Series one and raise you this seriously overpriced liability of a '91 Rangie lol

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/land-rover/range-rover/listing/3473215546?bof=XYgLVtzC


ajaffa1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
    • View Profile
Re: Welding off the Lister
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2022, 11:50:20 PM »
Hi Stef and everyone else. After the fires and more recent floods in Northern New South Wales, I fixed dozens of petrol generators that were donated by the public to aid with the recovery efforts. Most of them had done little or no work. None of them would start. Mostly this was due to them being stored full of fuel that evaporated leaving them full of red/brown sludge that clogged the carburetors and float valves. Some of them had obviously had E10 fuel in them which absorbs moisture from the environment causing corrosion.
Very simple to fix: Flush fuel tank, strip and clean carby, check air filter for spiders/ants, check/adjust tappet clearance, clean sparkplug.
A lot of these Honda/Chonda engines have a low oil level cut off switch so check oil condition/level. After that they should fire up after a couple of pulls.
I still have half a dozen such generators and water pumps that I haven`t got around to fixing yet, I would send you one but I suspect the shipping costs would be prohibitive.
Taz is looking good, My new shed has been ordered and is being delivered at the end of the month. The ground workers and concreters are starting work next week. I will post pics and info once they start.

Exciting times  :)
Bob