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Author Topic: Electric starter for 6/1  (Read 275 times)

mikenash

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Electric starter for 6/1
« on: July 11, 2022, 10:27:27 PM »
Hey guys there has been a conversation here on-and-off about various starters for CSs Ė some elegant air motors, some starter-motor conversions with rubber cush drives, various units employing a belt . . .

Realising that, sooner or later, Iím going to get too old to crank the Listers, Iíve been keen to build a starter and have been working away with some components

I tack-welded some of the bits together yesterday and attached it to the CS with some G-clamps and gave it a trial run just using a battery off my car, some heavy jumper leads and a bit of wire with a spade clip to liven-up the starter motor.

See pics?  Itís pretty self-explanatory.  What the parts are is:

A starter motor and flex-plate off an old Nissan car from the wreckers.

A 2Ē keyed taper-lock unit with a weld boss outer assembly, plus a hand cut/filed stepped key and a couple of grub-screw holes cut and threaded into the boss.

A bit of 10mm plate roughly cut round, bolted to the flex plate, then put in a chuck and bored to suit the weld boss of the taper-lock.

The starter-motor bolted onto a mount to suit; and that mount welded onto the chassis that supports the CS

It was raining cats-and-dogs yesterday so all I did was tack it in place and use it to start the Lister three or four times with the de-compression at the exhaust valve engaged, then dropped once the revs were up after about three or four rotations.

Works like a charm.  I got sick of getting wet before I gave it a try with full compression Ė I donít know if Iíd normally do that, anyway, as it seems unnecessarily hard on the gear; and itíll be easy to mount a starter button somewhere near the pushrod side of the motor.

I reckon costs were something like:

Starter motor & ring-gear/flex-plate - $50
Taper-lock insert and weld boss - $80
Machine boss-sized hole in plate - $50
Bits of steel, welding & bolts scrounged at zero cost

This week, hopefully, Iíll weld stuff together properly and give it a better run on the next weekend Iím up there.  Cheers

ajaffa1

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2022, 08:19:57 AM »
Very nice Mike, very simple and made from readily available recycled bits. You probably should avoid starting it with full compression, these starter motors are designed for more modern engines without the inertial mass of two large flywheels. You could probably rig up some sort of a governor assembly that would automatically drop the decompressor lever once the flywheels get enough inertia.
An alternative might be to use an electric actuator to move the decompressor lever in and out, a timer relay should be adequate to to allow the flywheels to build up sufficient momentum before compression kicks in. You could do this with a remote start feature so you don`t have to go out in the rain.
Here we are trying to redesign the SOM, we both have better things to do.

Bob

dieselspanner

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2022, 12:31:43 PM »
Nice one, Mike

Broadly similar to one I knocked up a couple of years back, using the starter off a Land Rover 2 1/4 diesel ('cos I had one) The only difference is I added mine to the alternator shaft, the rational being that the Landy flywheel was around the same size as the pulley driven by the Lister and that meant I could keep it all as narrow as possible'

After some trials I found that if the flywheel was wound 'forward' to the start of the compression stroke the starter would engage and turn the engine over without undue signs of stress, even with the cov wound in. As I'm sure we've all noticed, the last compression stroke, as the engine runs down to a stop, 'bounces' the motor backwards and this provides a bit of a run up for the starter, next time.

Bearing in mind that driving the flywheel from the alternator, via the serpentine belt gives it almost a five to one 'disadvantage' I'd hope you'll have no need to 'fabricobble' an automatic decompression system

Another big advantage is that with the engine decompressed the starter makes bleeding a joy rather than a chore.

I've since changed the the cov for a 'blanking' plug ans added an extra  (Lidl's beer box thickness) gasket under the block to drop the compression slightly (one of the members here, I can't remember who, sorry! suggested it) and it's as happy as Larry.

By the end of the summer I should have a genny shed built and the Lister up here at the barn conversion and earning it's living......

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

veggie

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2022, 02:18:54 PM »

Nice job spanner.
What will the Lister be used for?
Charging batteries? or prime 240 vac power for the building?
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

mikenash

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2022, 08:07:32 PM »
Hi Stef, Bob, Veg

I'm a fan of "keep it simple", Bob.  I'm not an electronics person - I like stuff that I can see the "workings".  In fact the small electronics bits of the ST clone head worry me - how will I know if a bit goes bad?  And which bit?  I'm a bit of a luddite like that.  So I'll keep it manual I guess.  Because you tend to stand "behind" the engine to operate the starter/fuel lever/decompression - I think I'll just mount a push-button there somewhere in the middle of a wire from 12VDC to the solenoid.  it'll be easy to make sure the decompression is engaged & the excess fuel is set, push the button, and drop the decompression once it fires.  i don't need anything more complex than that; and it's my habit to engage the decompression on it's last, dying revolution as it stops.

I have a couple of heads - a Markon and a Chinese St clone (with which Bruce has been very helpful, thanks).  Currently the Markon is mounted.  I also have 2 X 105A Leece-Neville truck alternators - beautiful bits of kit - and will mount one of them shortly as a battery charger

I don't live up there - I'll be retiring there in a year or two, at which point I'll upgrade my solar.  I figure a decent LiFePo4 unit, three or four of the 375W units we use for solar pumps here, plus a Victron "Easy-Solar" charger/controller is pretty much what I need.  At the moment I have 2 X 120W panels, a bunch of lead-acids & a cheap MPPT charge controller - the whole lot probably owes me $400 - but, more importantly, I'm learning how to manage the solar without destroying expensive batteries while the "learning curve" flattens out.  Like you, Stef, I'm a little way away from being there with everything running - but I'm getting there.  The solar runs lights & either one of two fridges (one DC, one off the inverter) plus charges the phone etc - that's 90% of what I need right there.

There's an older pic here of a previous CS - turned out to have a bad barrel, so put aside - sitting where the current unit is mounted.  What's not obvious - as it's overgrown - is that it's bolted to a big pad.  I need to pour some more concrete and build it a shed . . . that's somewhere down the list

At the moment it's out in the weather and I have a persistent issue with water getting "inside" - so there's a head-gasket leak or similar I need to dismantle & find before it can earn its living properly.  Plus I need to build a decent fuel tank-and-filter system etc.  No real $$ just time.  This weekend just gone I drained the cooling tank & left the drain valve open - if there's water in there next time I run it - then it's from the weather.  I don't see how rain can get "in" but maybe it is?  I'll find out.  Either way the head needs to come off.  I bought some head-gaskets from the helpful man - John? - in Thailand

Stef, I have a CS with a Listeroid head up there too - it has a COV plug in the hole, but I don't know what the compression is.  Starts & runs fine.  I have a glow-plug heater I thought I might get round to fitting into it one day - or maybe not.  Time & priorities again . . .

I have several Chinese Honda-clone generators from 2.2kW to 6.6kW, and I use them as required - but it'd be nice to have the Lister puttering away quietly for longer runs - I figure the Markon head will be good for that

Cheers

dieselspanner

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2022, 09:05:12 PM »
Hi All

I'm well in with the KISS boys although I have invested in a Chinese circuit board to control the pump on the Rayburn wood burning stove, I didn't want to throttle  the pump back with a valve as it works quite well in 'thermo siphon mode, (I used ball valves everywhere to keep resistance to a minimum) I fitted a Grundfoss pump I was given but even on the slowest speed, when the thermostat kicked in it would empty the back boiler of hot water. I added a a circuit board from eBay  - less than a tenner - which when powered up by the 'stat runs the pump 3 seconds on, 100 seconds of (it took a bit of playing with to sort it out) and I reckon it's made the system 15 / 20% more efficient.

I'm not sure what the Lister will do, I bought a self contained remote work station gen set from eBay that has a small Hatz motor with a Victron control box that keeps a small bank of batteries topped up automatically. The Victron Multiplus inverter charger sorts everything out and If I exceed around a 3kva load it dumps everything and restarts. It burns around 3 litres of red (agricultural diesel with less tax) with around 20% filtered WVO, about 2.5 euros a day at the moment.

Tonight I had the first pizza from my home made pizza oven, I hope I get better at cooking them!

I'm playing with solar panels too, I'll go and find the right thread and update it, before I forget

Cheers
Stef

Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mikenash

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2022, 07:06:03 AM »
Hey Stef talking about your Rayburn reminds me . . . I have had woodstoves with wetbacks in the last four houses.  Each one has been more heavily modified than the last to the point where with this place (it's more of a shed/workshop/house than just a "house") I built my own from scratch - as much as for any other reason to get the wetback "right" so that the thermosiphon produces enough hot water - but not so much that the cylinder is always boiling . . .

We have talked before about my oil-burner attachment to the front of the stove - it's a pragmatic move . . . .I have access to almost unlimited oil and I need heating, so . . . and you have (quite rightly) laughed at its crudity

Since my last trip up there I have been tinkering with the burn pot - chasing efficiency and "clean, hot burn".  I gave it a bit of a run last weekend and it's interesting how the column of hot air/flame heats the water via the wetback - an unexpected bonus

Before I turned it off at bedtime, I gave it a two or three minute burst with all the air intakes wide open ("full throttle")  and that (sorry, very low quality) pic is the result.  It took about three minutes for that steel bend (150mm diameter, 5mm wall) to be glowing bright red and too hot to get anywhere near.  It's ugly but well worth playing with

If I can get it heating water via the wetback efficiently then even better

The wetback is a single flat section - effectively the "back"of the firebox about 500mm wide by 250mm high by 60mm deep - homebuilt out of welded 6mm stainless plate with 50mm (2") wetback fittings and 40mm copper pipe between wetback & cylinder

Cheers

ajaffa1

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2022, 10:26:01 AM »
Hi Mike, many years ago I had a lovely cottage with two wetback fireplaces and an oil fired heating boiler. Could not get them to work as one properly on thermosyphon, to heat hot water and wet radiators around the house. Eventually I talked to a heating expert who explained it to me.
If you are only heating one circuit (hot water/wet radiators) no problem thermosyphon works well. Beyond that you need to fit a circulation pump with a pipe thermostat to turn it on and off as the wetback temperature rises.
If you are running multiple wetbacks/boilers you require a central manifold, something like a Dursley Neutralize. This will ensure that your heat goes where you want it rather than circulating through and heating the cold wetbacks in an unlit boiler or fire.

Bob

veggie

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2022, 02:13:56 PM »
mikenash

That starter should work well.
What is the intended use for the Listeroid
Are you going off-grid?
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

mikenash

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2022, 07:35:22 PM »
Hi Mike, many years ago I had a lovely cottage with two wetback fireplaces and an oil fired heating boiler. Could not get them to work as one properly on thermosyphon, to heat hot water and wet radiators around the house. Eventually I talked to a heating expert who explained it to me.
If you are only heating one circuit (hot water/wet radiators) no problem thermosyphon works well. Beyond that you need to fit a circulation pump with a pipe thermostat to turn it on and off as the wetback temperature rises.
If you are running multiple wetbacks/boilers you require a central manifold, something like a Dursley Neutralize. This will ensure that your heat goes where you want it rather than circulating through and heating the cold wetbacks in an unlit boiler or fire.

Bob

Hey Bob, yes, I've got that

I've built three houses now, and have settled on the idea that "less is more" - especially for someone like me who lives on his own.  So my current, half-finished shed/house/workshop is only 72 square metres and almost completely open-plan with a woodstove in the middle.  So radiant heat is fine for heating the building, and the woodstove has a cook-top & oven as well.  The wetback just has to make hot water for the hot water cylinder - and in summer I have solar hot water.  So no requirement for radiators, pumps etc - I don't need or want that level of complexity

Cheers

mikenash

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2022, 07:41:36 PM »
mikenash

That starter should work well.
What is the intended use for the Listeroid
Are you going off-grid?

Hi Veg, I guess so.  "Going off grid" kinda sounds like some virtue-signalling, green-wash process.  But the reality is I live somewhere with lots of sunshine hours, I live largely on my own so can please myself how I live (except when the grandkids are there, of course).  I have good skills with woodstoves, basic solar hot water and basic photovoltaic; and I'd prefer not to pay a power bill.

I have two sections and there is mains cable to the next-door one, and I could get it connected - perhaps when I get old & feeble?

But right now I get on fine with solar/woodstove/gas hob/oil-burner

When I retire to that spot full-time - perhaps in a couple of years, as I'm 65 - I'll upgrade the photovoltaic to maybe 1500W and a big LiFePo4

I'm aware that I'm not gonna be a $$-rich retiree.  So if I can avoid paying a power bill - then I will

Cheers

dieselspanner

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2022, 08:05:18 PM »
I'm getting worried MIke,

I think we may be psychic twins.......

Cheers
Stef
Tighten 'til it strips, weld nut to chassis, peen stud, adjust with angle grinder.

mikenash

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Re: Electric starter for 6/1
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2022, 07:03:27 AM »
I'm getting worried MIke,

I think we may be psychic twins.......

Cheers
Stef

No danger there, Stef.  I've never been to France . . .

But in 2007 I spent a chunk of time in a small, parochial village in Tuscany - up the end of a dirt-track road up into the mountains - called Eque Terme (warm water), so perhaps I can relate :)