Author Topic: Hatz E79 - Shop manual  (Read 627 times)

glassblower

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Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« on: May 21, 2022, 08:07:16 PM »
Acquired a Hatz E79 engine a while back and started to tear into it. Put a new injector nozzle in, bled the line and  have fuel spray now (old injector was stuck). Pulled fuel tank, new filter, new fuel, and when cranking it it will attempt to pop once or twice after coming off of automatic de compression. Checked intake and exhaust valve lash and seems to be fine. I suspect possibly low compression but don't have a way to check it (metric fittings). The engine is in good condition, clean, appears to be well taken care of. Any chance anyone out there has a shop manual for this ?
Thanks
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glassblower

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2022, 08:28:36 PM »
It's 85 F here today but I even put a heat gun to the head and warmed it with no difference. It sometimes will only pop once or twice after de compression releases, sometimes nothing. Open to any suggestions what to look for.
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mikenash

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2022, 06:33:40 AM »
A couple of thoughts - and others more knowledgeable here will correct me if I'm wrong:

I had an old Lister CS that came like that - long story short it had sat for a while and the rings had become stuck in the grooves, If you can get it running they may well come right by themselves

So - maybe a teaspoon or two of oil down the intake before cranking it over?  That'll just raise the compression temporarily - and smoke like a bugger if it fires

Second option is ether - "AeroStart" or "engine start" or whatever.  Just a puff into the intake as it is cranked.  A little is a lot with that stuff as it raises the compression enough to break rings if you over-use it

You could google the use of that

Good luck

cobbadog

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2022, 11:45:03 AM »
Good idea with the oil or the Aerostart to find out the quickest way. Also it assumes that the fuel is free flowing all the way to the pump. no blockages inside the tank, tap (if fitted), or outlet of the filter bowl.
I had a McDonald Super Imperial Crude Oil Engine I rebuilt. It was never going to start off the crank and this is with new rings and gaskets etc plus overhauled hyvid bronz fuel injector. In the end I belted it to the PTO pulley on the tractor. That bought it to life and once running for quite some time. After killing every mosquito for a mile radius it now starts off the crank
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oldgoat

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2022, 12:04:25 PM »
I have a pdf for a hatz e71 which should be applicable to your diesel

glassblower

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 01:55:29 PM »
Good Idea on the rings and the oil, Wish I had a way to belt it to one of my tractors. It does have a starter generator but I could swap it out for an electric motor and let it spin for an hour with the decompression off. I am hesitant  to use ether on the engine for fear of damage. I do have fuel flow, nice spray with the new injector so maybe I do have stuck rings. I'll give it a little oil, maybe pull the starting plug so it can breath a little while the motor does it's work and I can then get away with a little 1/2 HP electric motor.

Old Goat, do you have a shop / repair manual ? I have the the parts and operator manual.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
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oldgoat

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2022, 11:06:10 AM »
Its an E71 repair manual but it should be applicable to your diesel. Send me a P.M. with your email I can't see how to post on here

cobbadog

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2022, 11:59:51 AM »
Suggest not to ever use a starter motor for long periods of time as they burn out. They are only dessigned for short pulses of power to start an engine in good usuable condition.
Can you adapt a 4" pulley off the PTO?
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glassblower

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2022, 01:20:23 AM »
Suggest not to ever use a starter motor for long periods of time as they burn out. They are only dessigned for short pulses of power to start an engine in good usuable condition.
Can you adapt a 4" pulley off the PTO?

I don't use Ether at all, it is plenty warm out and not worth the risk of damage. I have about a 5" pulley on it now if I wish to belt it to a motor. So I'm questioning the amount of fuel getting to the cylinder. When I crank for a bit, and it comes off decompression, it's hard to crank of course. After I'm cranking, If I push down on a valve spring, the compression escapes so I believe that the rings are free.

Thanks for the manual OldGoat !
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cobbadog

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2022, 12:28:16 PM »
Have you pulled the i njector and physically seen how much fuel is coming out of the nozzle atomised? With out doing this there is no way of knowing how much fuel is going in.
If you wish  not to try a bit of either then squirt some oil into the cylinder and try to start it. But you really need to test that it is being atomised and  not too much raw fuel getting inside.
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glassblower

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2022, 03:02:56 PM »
Yep ,  new injector nozzle in, bled the line and  has a nice atomized fuel spray.
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Willw

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2022, 06:40:15 AM »
Have you tried the extra fuel device?

If you haven't, pull the throttle lever back towards the cylinder (fuel off position), lift up and hold the round knob located on top of the crankcase and next to the throttle lever, next push the throttle lever away from the cylinder until it stops. Next, release the knob you were holding and it should stay up.
This is the extra fuel cold start position.  Crank engine as usual and if it starts, the governor will kick the throttle back towards the cylinder and either reduce the engine RPM or shut the engine off completely, depending on the throttle.

On most of my E79's the throttle will stay where you set it, but on one of them the throttle is spring loaded and the engine will run slow if I hold the throttle, but the moment I let it go the spring reduces it to no fuel and the engine shuts off.

Just my .02c
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glassblower

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2022, 12:10:28 PM »
I have tried the cold start button, it works, stays up when I pull it up and open up the throttle and stays there (not spring loaded). Didn't work on the unit all week, my real job got in the way. Hopefully will take a stab at it this weekend. Thinking about bolting a 3 HP electric motor to it and letting it spin and spin while I try to get it to start. A little easier than the hand crank and the starter generator doesn't seem to like the repeated start attempts.

Thanks for the tips though.
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mobile_bob

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2022, 11:28:18 PM »
are you using the hand crank?

if so, try to crank the engine without the compression release, you should have a hell of a time getting it to crank over
that would tell me you have adequate compression

also just because the injector appears to be putting out a decent spray pattern, it may not be doing so when pushing against compression, you might need to increase the injector spring tension a bit.

does the engine put out smoke while you are trying to start it?  if it is putting out smoke you are likely getting enough fuel, but it might not be atomized and increasing the injector spring pressure a bit will help.

the right way to check the injector of course is to take it to an injection shop and have them test and set the pressure that it pops off at.

i also agree that you might well do better to get a pulley mounted and spin the engine up using another engine, sometimes you just need the added rpm to get it to light up the first time.

very hard to diagnose this sort of thing from a keyboard/puter screen

fwiw
bob g
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glassblower

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Re: Hatz E79 - Shop manual
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2022, 03:16:19 PM »
Agreed, I should post a video.  When I hand crank and it comes off automatic compression, it is almost impossible if not impossible to crank. If I crank enough times I see a little fog (very little) coming out from exhaust but that's only after I have cranked it many many times. I never thought about the injector not over coming the engine compression. Good point, I'll look to see if I can bump the injector pump pressure a bit and see if that helps. May explain the occasional pop or attempt to start if I put a squirt of oil in the cylinder prior to cranking.

Thanks for the tips Bob
GM90 Listeroid, Lister Petter AC1, Hatz, Rumely Oilpulls