KIT ENGINE, First impressions--

[hotater]

It's best  NOT to forget about the stability of the crankshaft and the design of the crankcase....

Reading about the old stationary steam and fuel engines there's a common thread--- the foundation is the 'other' part of the support structure of the engine parts and is said to be VERY important.   I've chosen to believe THAT'S why Lister was so detailed about construction of the base and the care in mounting the engine properly.....the engine has a combination frame--- concrete and cast iron, firmly bolted together with no give, play, or movement.

It's obvious a portable engine runs and works and will for a long time, but for the use the engines were built for, it's heavy, solid, and permanent concrete that's needed for maximum life.

I'd still like to balance the engine well enough the worms don't shoot out of the ground when it shivers on start-up and shut down.   

[oldnslow]

I agree the engine requires a base as an integral part in the long run,  but not for the elimination of inadequate balance at the start of the engine's life. Especially if the thing is hopping around. Think of all that internal stress when you bolt down a hopper? Is that acceptable? I don't think it's good but that's my opinion, not experience.
 
We do know from the consensus on the board that some run smooth and some are hoppers right out of the crate, so, there must be a way to get from hopping to smooth prior to bolting it down to a good solid mount? At least get it pretty close to smooth.
 

[slowspeed1953]

Old,

I agree! No one has been able to convense me that when you bolt down a unbalanced motor to a solid chunk of concrete that the forces that where moving the motor around are not now eating bearings and flexing crankshafts.

For my application I plan to build a cross-braced I beam frame to mount the engine and genny to and then use a really nice set of industral machine air mounts to secure it to a 4-6" concrete slab.

Peace&Love , Darren

[hotater]

It sure gets hard to keep PERSPECTIVE, don't it?

The English Listers WERE balanced, as well as the design calls for,  (I STILL would like to know HOW),   then they were bolted to a solid mount to last into the ages.

Now, SOMEWHERE in the innards or spinning outtards of a Indian engine is a wrong part that makes it shiver in MIGHTY convulsions at certain RPMs.  Obviously *something* is not balanced.
 What PART or relation to parts is out of balance and how do you find it?

THAT's  one question.

I'm not into bolting weights on parts that aren't wrong.   But IF they're wrong, I'd like to know it.

Since the inside parts are pretty much 'set' in weight and relationships to each other they *must be* pretty close....twins are another story.  As long as the crankshaft is the same design and size the internals *can't* be too far from original.

That leaves the flywheels as the culprit.

NOW---  assuming a minute a flywheel is a pound *wrong* of 'where it should be'.  Since there's a cast-in counterweight on the rim, it's not 'balanced', but SOMEWHERE, somebody HAS to know how much that counterweight is supposed to weigh.....I sure can't figure it out from the "Duels by formulae" that fly around my head.

Here's the question I'm asking---  Is that flywheel 'wrong' because the Indians put too much iron somwhere?  Or left some OUT?  Or missplaced a keyway?  Or machined the casting eccentrically?  Is there a way to determine which it is?

I just can't get excited about hanging extra weight on something that may not be structurally strong enough to take it.

To the foundation--- These engine can NOT be perfectly balanced, no matter what you do.  That's why the crankshaft is so MASSIVE and the horsepower so low. 

I'm not ready to say 'this is why it is', but it seems to me Lister designed their half of the engine pretty well.  It's up to the customer to supply the support for it.  Lister has said what that should be.

Can anybody think of WHY Lister would have specified that particular mount and mounting system if not for stabalizing the engine?
   My steelmill millwright buddy says it's a no-brainer.  The foundation is the 'other half' of the crankcase.

[jimmer]

Now, SOMEWHERE in the innards or spinning outtards of a Indian engine is a wrong part that makes it shiver in MIGHTY convulsions at certain RPMs.  Obviously *something* is not balanced.
 What PART or relation to parts is out of balance and how do you find it?

Just to set the record straight. Not all Indian Listeroids are jumpers.

Mine is smoooooth. Yup, that's right. Smooooth!


jim

[oldnslow]

I guess it depends on how far out of balance it is as to how detrimental the forces will ultimately be. It may only need be a small amount out of balance to make an unfastened engine hop around. So all this may be much adieu about nothing. Are we overanalyzing?

Hotater, I think the flywheels are the most obvious. We know there are wide variations in the quality of the castings. Substandard castings may be impossible for an Indian manufacturer to balance out at the factory. I will be watching to see how your kit engine flywheels measure up.

Making a solid frame is great for alignment but you still need the foundation, as Lister specified because it is a necessary to have that chunk of mass to dissipate/dampen forces. IMHO

[binnie]

Hotater,
Now that your flywheels are off the machine, has anyone actually weighed each flywheel seperately to see if there is a difference in weight do to casting iregularities? I for one would be interested in the outcome. To start with, if they are at least both exactly the same, it could give you a better perspective on the balancing problems. I may be off the wall, but have never read where anyone actually weighed them. binnie

[slowspeed1953]

Hotater,
Now that your flywheels are off the machine, has anyone actually weighed each flywheel seperately to see if there is a difference in weight do to casting iregularities? I for one would be interested in the outcome. To start with, if they are at least both exactly the same, it could give you a better perspective on the balancing problems. I may be off the wall, but have never read where anyone actually weighed them. binnie

Souns like an perfect place to start on a non bob weighted listeroid!

Peace&Love , Darren

[bitsnpieces1]

It sure gets hard to keep PERSPECTIVE, don't it?

The English Listers WERE balanced, as well as the design calls for,  (I STILL would like to know HOW),   then they were bolted to a solid mount to last into the ages.

Now, SOMEWHERE in the innards or spinning outtards of a Indian engine is a wrong part that makes it shiver in MIGHTY convulsions at certain RPMs.  Obviously *something* is not balanced.

  hotater, Do I understand you right?  You're saying that the vibration starts at some rpm, then gets worse, then gets better.  That sounds like a harmonic situation.  Like a spring will damp out vabration until it reaches a harmonic and then the vibration takes off like mad.  A little futher on it will smooth out.  I've had this happen with car front end shimmy at certain speeds.  Try a google search for "Vibration Analysis", we used to have it done on a regular basis at the plant where I worked.  Thay can tell what is vibrating, how bad it's vibrating, and predict when it will HAVE to be replaced.  Not cheap , but, it can find a bad ball in a particular bearing as well as a chunk of rags in an impeller. 

try here:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&q=vibration+analysis

[rgroves]

Which means that the flywheels from an English Lister should turn an Indian hopper into a more civilized beast.  We could call it the "Lee-Enfield variant"   
Now to find a good set of British flywheels. 

rg

It sure gets hard to keep PERSPECTIVE, don't it?

The English Listers WERE balanced, as well as the design calls for,  (I STILL would like to know HOW),   then they were bolted to a solid mount to last into the ages.

Now, SOMEWHERE in the innards or spinning outtards of a Indian engine is a wrong part that makes it shiver in MIGHTY convulsions at certain RPMs.  Obviously *something* is not balanced.
 What PART or relation to parts is out of balance and how do you find it?

THAT's  one question.

I'm not into bolting weights on parts that aren't wrong.   But IF they're wrong, I'd like to know it.

Since the inside parts are pretty much 'set' in weight and relationships to each other they *must be* pretty close....twins are another story.  As long as the crankshaft is the same design and size the internals *can't* be too far from original.

That leaves the flywheels as the culprit.

NOW---  assuming a minute a flywheel is a pound *wrong* of 'where it should be'.  Since there's a cast-in counterweight on the rim, it's not 'balanced', but SOMEWHERE, somebody HAS to know how much that counterweight is supposed to weigh.....I sure can't figure it out from the "Duels by formulae" that fly around my head.

Here's the question I'm asking---  Is that flywheel 'wrong' because the Indians put too much iron somwhere?  Or left some OUT?  Or missplaced a keyway?  Or machined the casting eccentrically?  Is there a way to determine which it is?

I just can't get excited about hanging extra weight on something that may not be structurally strong enough to take it.

To the foundation--- These engine can NOT be perfectly balanced, no matter what you do.  That's why the crankshaft is so MASSIVE and the horsepower so low. 

I'm not ready to say 'this is why it is', but it seems to me Lister designed their half of the engine pretty well.  It's up to the customer to supply the support for it.  Lister has said what that should be.

Can anybody think of WHY Lister would have specified that particular mount and mounting system if not for stabalizing the engine?
   My steelmill millwright buddy says it's a no-brainer.  The foundation is the 'other half' of the crankcase.

[mobile_bob]

i have a question

some time ago, there was a guy on here that described the balance procedure using chalk and a running engine.

because these engines run at a fixed speed i am wondering why his method would not be more than sufficient to balance these engines?

basically he is using the same method albeit with chalk that is used to balance wheel/tires on large spin balancers, at least the one we use to balance wheels mounted on trucks. where we spin the wheel on the truck and use a strobe light to find the spot where weight is added to get the thing balanced.

seems to me his method is far easier than removing flywheels and disassembling the engine to get weights, we are talking about a fixed rpm.

his method would balance both flywheels and settle even the worst example right down to as smooth as it is ever going to run based on balance issues not withstanding the issue of torque pulses

whatcha think?

bob g

[binnie]

Hi Hotater,
I still would like to know if those flywheels weigh the same....and if not how much they are out of sinc.?  (a 23" shaft between each flywheel should have no problems no matter what it is pushing  up & down if both wheels are the same mass. I still wonder? It seems too simple but sometimes the answer is. Let us know...binnie

[mobile_bob]

what would make the difference if they were 50 lbs different?

difference in weight makes no impact on overall balance, in re to the flywheel overall weights,
where the weight is located makes a difference of course, only as it relates to the individual flywheel and
where it is located to compensate for internal balance issues.

for instance the chevy 400 small block was an externally balanced engine, if you used the flywheel off a 350 which was internally balanced the engine would shake and vibrate.

so it stands to reason that one could balance externally a listeriod by means of adding weight to the flywheels without disassembly or weighing the individual flywheels.

say you remove the fly wheels only to find out you have to add or subtract weight from them to make them balanced seperately.  no how do you know if you are adding weight that is going to adversely effect overall engine balance or taking off weight and doing the same.

i cant see how it makes sense to worry about individual component balance on one of these engines , it is the overall balance one is after, so balance it as a unit.

what am i missing, what advantage is there to weighing the flywheels and balanceing them seperate?

if you had issues with a 400 chevy balance you sure would not remove the flywheel and balance it seperately! if you did you would be far worse than when you started.

seems apples to apples to me

am i missing something here?

bob g

[aqmxv]

Bob - what you're missing is the rocking couple.

The 400 CI chevy was externally balanced basically because chevrolet wanted to be able to fine-tune the balance on the OUTSIDE of the engine after it was built.  Ford built some of the larger V8s (with larger stacking tolerances for component weights) the same way for the same reason.  There were also big fat balancing weights on the flexplates/torque convertors as well.

A listeroid has two large flywheels and a 20-odd inch space between.  Let's postulate one wheel in what we'll call "correct" balance - meaning that it is, itself, out of balance by half of the mass needed to compensate for the stuff inside the engine.  Now let's postulate that the *other* wheel is not balanced the same - lets just say that it's off -kilter by something like five ounces at some random place on the rim.

Now spin the engine up.  The properly balanced wheel is going to try to pull the crankshaft down when the piston is going up and vice-versa.  It was balanced with the expectation that the other wheel would be doing the same thing at the same time.  If this isn't true, then the out-of-balance wheel is pulling some combination of left or right or possibly down when the balanced wheel is pulling up.  There's a 20 inch bar separating them.

Result: the listeroid is trying to do the twist, or hula or something like that.  It's not pretty.  You can statically or dynamically balance the beast, but it's going to be a lot easier to get rid of rocking couple if you do one wheel separate from the other, because you just have no idea what the vectors are otherwise - too many unknowns.

[mobile_bob]

"Bob - what you're missing is the rocking couple."

i understand that,, but....

i still don't have an answer as to how you are going to tell where to start on an externally balanced machine.

now if you were to static balance one flywheel and then dynamically balance the overall engine by the chalk method on the other wheel you might have something.

otherwise you simply cannot say with any certainty whether you are adding or subtracting weight from both wheels independantly with the result being  a help or hinderance to overall balance.

for instance, say you have an engine that only vibrates a little, and you are anal about it being a swiss watch.

you remove the flywheels and find one to be heavy on one side by 5 oz, and the other heavy by 10 oz (or lbs!)
so u set out with your bubble balancer to correct them seperately, either by removing the 5 oz from one side of the first flywheel or adding weight to the other side of that wheel... now you have a bubble perfect wheel.
move on to the other and do the same, either adding or subtracting the 10 oz to get a bubble prefect flywheel for that side...

reinstall the flywheels and find the engine shakes much worse,, using the chalk method you start adding weight to dynamically balance the machine, only to find you have to add back the 5 to the one side and the 10 to the other side, and then maybe add or subtract a bit here or there.

follow?

bob g