KIT ENGINE, First impressions--

[hotater]

I was planning on waiting until it was all apart and on the bench, but things keep happening that prevents it and this is just too good to keep quiet.

I have one of the new Power Solutions-JKson 6-1 shortblocks in the shop.

My first Indian engine was the FuKing 6-1.  They *said* it was crude and I wasn't disapointed.

Next came several Ashwameh  mini-Petters.  MUCH better!  I've checked them all out that I've run and tappets rotated and bearings were clean....

Now this!!

This company has, with many special instructions and specifications I'm sure, done a really terrific job of building engine parts.  I'm IMPRESSED!!  It's fully as good as my '75 Onan for fit and finish and density and 'fineness' of the castings.  There's even indications on the side of the crank that somebody thought they saw a flaw and ground down to check on it. 
<thank you!>

The casting of the sump area is REALLY nice!  The area under the big end of the rod is Vee shaped and angled some to follow the swing of the crank.  There's a BIG dropped area at the front with the oil pump pickup.  It's just an amazing thing to see.

The insides are snow white and hard as epoxy ALL over the insides.

I peeked down the bore....crosshatch and a  POLISHED PISTON??

Even the outside is great.  The green is RIGHT! 

Even the gaskets are good!

More later, but for now, put me down as a BEliver that the Indians CAN get it right.

I'll start a new photo album and I'm sure it'll be linked soon.

THIS is more like IT!!

[MeanListerGreen]

But, Can they repeat it?

[trickn7474]

I want one where did you get it? I want one.

[Geno]

But, Can they repeat it?

This is the second kit engine I know of that looks good and I only know of 2.

Thanks, Geno

[xyzer]

tater,

Has anyone heard how th balance is on these kit engins?

Thanks
Dave

[hotater]

xyzer---

I've determined Lister got it right.  Tie it down  to a proper foundation and you never know about the balance...it's smooth all the time.

  I  *agree* that vibration is bad, but I've found that engines mounted solid don't vibrate.  Check out the runaway MP thread.  I was standing next to a mini-Petter turning over 3800 rpm and there was no vibration.... LOTS of smoke and noise and urgency, but no vibration or jumping around.

[aqmxv]

THIS is more like IT!!

I have to admit that I've been mostly pleased with the fit and finish of my Metro 6/1.  I was expecting something slightly better than Hotater's FuKing, and instead I got a machine that was well enough put together that it was actually serviceable (by third-world standards, anyway) out of the crate.  All of the places I've been warned to look for badness have turned out OK.  There are possibly three small (pea-sized) pockets of sand in the crankcase.  The reinforcment ribs are clearly contiguous and visible.  There was no sand under the head of the piston at all.  Piston finish is, frankly, better than several pre-war engines I've rebuilt, and as good as Detroit products of the 1960s.  Bore finish is just about perfect - a very close finish with light cross-hatching.  The con-rod looks exactly like what I take out of Corvairs except larger, and a little better finished, and the crank has a close finish as well.  The wrist pin is a thing of beauty.  The only other place I've seen one as nice is in Japanese two strokes with caged roller bearings there.  There are hardness test spots in quite a few places, and spot size suggests that they were getting consistent numbers.

The biggest no-go item I've run across so far is surface finish on pushrods and rocker arms.  The (forged) arms themselves are acceptable and the bushings look good.  The contact faces, however, were as rough as Hotater's FuKing out of the box.  There was actually sandlot dirt in the cups of the tappets.  I haven't had the cam and tappets out yet, but I expect the contact faces on the tappets will have to be lapped down on my stone.

I haven't run it yet, but spinning it up to about 200 RPM caused no attempt at motion in any plane.  I'm sure it'll need some balancing, but I don't think it's going to be a kangaroo.

I make this comparison deliberately because the Metro is probably the cheapest 6/1 or 12/2 IDI you can get in the crate in the US.  It doesn't have an oil pump or a stepped sump.  There's no doubt that JKsons kits are better, or that they're worth more money than the Metros - the stepped sump and oil pump alone are worth the extra money.  Having said that, the metro isn't a piece of junk and should make a perfectly serviceable engine after a little of the cleanup detailed here and on George's CD.

BTW, is anybody interested in making a hollow dipper?

[rjcroc]

aqmxv

I dont want to stray of the topic too far but I also have a 6/1 Metro and am mostly pleased but on my unit the crank keyways have between a 250 to 500 finish. (rough saw cut to cut with a dull ax)
finish. I plan to drill most of the way thru the dipper and then drill in at an angle near the bottom. I think this will work to pump the oil.

Rick

[xyzer]

tater,
This will be my second 6/1. I will also build it as a portable unit. I balance them out so they stay put with no walking around. I am not in an off grid area so I have to create uses for them....pump water or power outages or whatever pops up. My Vidhata would jump all over....now it stays put where I set it. I will probably dissamble balance then reassemble. The flywheels and head arn't mounted in the kit so it should be is an easy job. I also plan on making some more rod dippers on a CNC.  After I get my kit and can verify the thread pitch and dia. is the same as the Vidhata.  I will make extras if it appears everyone is using the same thread.
Dave

[aqmxv]

After I get my kit and can verify the thread pitch and dia. is the same as the Vidhata.  I will make extras if it appears everyone is using the same thread.
Dave

I suspect they are.  I don't have any BSF dies or taps, but I know that my dipper is neither SAE nor metric fine thread.  I considered trying to drill it concentrically, but haven't gotten up the nerve yet.  Without a mill to clamp it into, it'd be some tricky work.  I'll happily buy a holey dipper from you if you make a batch.

[xyzer]

After I get my kit and can verify the thread pitch and dia. is the same as the Vidhata.  I will make extras if it appears everyone is using the same thread.
Dave

I suspect they are.  I don't have any BSF dies or taps, but I know that my dipper is neither SAE nor metric fine thread.  I considered trying to drill it concentrically, but haven't gotten up the nerve yet.  Without a mill to clamp it into, it'd be some tricky work.  I'll happily buy a holey dipper from you if you make a batch.

My Vidhata is BSF .312 x 22 TPI. I will post when I get them finished....It may be this winter......or sooner if I get into it.....

[rjcroc]

xyzer,

Could you share your method for balancing. I have mine apart and its a good time to balance it.
Thanks, Rick

[hotater]

xyzer---

I too would love to hear your balancing method.  The very design of the engine and the footprint it occupies means it's not going to ever be a 'smooth' engine....a lot like my old flattrack bike, the BSA 441 Victor.  It would make both legs go to sleep while riding dirt roads!

I have precision shafting and can set up balancing beams to check flywheels for curosity sake, but I'd be very hesitant to add or subtract weight from these I have.  I DO want to know if they're out though.

[xyzer]

tater,
Remember the Victor didn't have much of a flywheel compared to the 6/1's hard to take the thump out!.......but what a trench digger! I e-mailed Rick to share my method....I used the standard static method the first time and it didn't work right..?!.....100% weight big end of rod + 50% piston and little end of rod, add total=bob weight to rod journal then balance....the problem....you can't balance both flywheels at the same time. This is where I blew it! I believe you have divide the bob weight by 2 and balance one flywheel at a time. If you balance flywheels at the same time you really don't know which one needs the weight and exactly where! They become 1 but are really 2! After that fiasco I had to use old add weight here and there to smooth it out. I didn't want to tear it down again!....I am ordering a 6/1 just to prove my theory and I have not done one the correct way as I see it. I have a set of large balancing rolls for grinding large wheels that I set the assembly in to find out where to add the weight. So.... If you still are interested in my modified method (one flywheel at a time)I'll get into more detail. I don't want to misslead anyone and I still have to try again myself.

[slowspeed1953]

From what ive read the formula for balancing is as follows.

Reciprocating weight X Balance factor + Rotating weight / 2

RECIPROCATING WEIGHT =

Rod small end, Piston, Wrist pin and Retainers and Rings

ROTATING WEIGHT =

Rod big end, Rod journal and Bearings

BALANCE FACTOR =

The "balance factor" is a percentage of the total reciprocating weight being balanced by flywheel counterweight.

A motor with low balance factor thus vibrates up and down a lot and vibrates fore and aft a little. The extreme case would be a vertically mounted single cylinder motor with a 0% balance factor (only rotating masses balanced). This motor vibrates only up and down. The same motor with a 100% balance factor would only vibrate fore and aft.

For our engines I think a balance factor of 50% would be a real good place to start.

So in order to achieve a 50 percent balance factor add 100% of the weight of the rotating elements to the crankpin along with 50% of the weight of the reciprocating elements, than with flywheels installed zero balance the assembly by removeing material from the previously zero balanced flywheels equally.

Peace&Love , Darren