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Author Topic: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!  (Read 11515 times)

hotater

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RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« on: August 22, 2006, 02:18:34 AM »
Here's the story as I know it and then I'll speculate.....

I cranked my 3.5HP Mini Petter pump today to take videos for Emerald.  I took one at about thirty seconds and several more for grins with a dark background and the exhaust plume in the sun.  No smoke after the muffler burnt off a little oil.  It was holding 32 psi and pumping water into two one inch poly pipes and then to nearly an acre of sprinklers.  No problems so I went up to the shop to break into a spanking new PS-Jkson short block for my tired ol' Listeroid, but I degress. 
  The Petter ran great for about 25 minutes...full of fuel and oil and everything ready to go all day, then I heard the tone change into 'dragster' mode.  I ran that way for about nine leaps and decided since IT was on the OTHER side of a poured concrete building full of hot water and *I* was on the safe side....I'd just stay there and try to figure out what happened once the smoke/dust/parts cleared some.   

There WAS smoke!   Black, unburned fuel smoke and puffs of white.  The RPMs finally leveled off but the smoke kept rolling.  The engine sounded rough...much like the video posted elsewhere, and popped and missed a bunch but kept right on running.  I considered going down and pushing on the throttle bar with a rake handle, but not for long.

IT took six minutes by the watch for the engine to start missing more often and finally staggered to a stop.  I'd already gathered a fire extingisher and my IR gun to see what a molten puddle of Petter actually measured.

I peeked around the corner and it was sitting there slightly smoldering around the pepper can muffler but otherwise plumb normal.  The head was a little warm at 199 but not bad.

The mystery became 'why did it quit'?  I checked the oil---down to the 'add' line.   I 'shot' every part of it with the IR gun and saw nothing out of ordinary hot except the muffler.  IT was toasty!!  The flywheel was perfectly free and it had plenty of compression, too!  I couldn't help but try to crank it back up.  No squeek from the injector.  OUT of fuel!!

It had sucked down a whole tank in 31 minutes!  NO wonder it blew a lot of smoke!

I re-filled the fuel tank and purged the line and tried it.  FIRST time it fired and off it went.  BLACK smoke, white smoke, billows of it.  I noticed the governor lever was bouncing back and forth when I shoved it over to shut it down.

The governor weights are NOT controlling the throttle bar.   I thought about that for a while.

The pumpsets are crankshaft started on the 'other' side.  The pump is mounted on the ordinary crankshaft extension.  That means the governor end of the camshaft is behind the flywheel and tough to get to.  I decided, in the interest of science and just because I'm not too bright, to get out my fancy new laser guided tachometer and find out what the engine was really doing and where was it *supposed* to run. (1500 on this one).

I cleaned of an area of the flywheel across the face and then on the back towards the throttle bar for the tape.  I wanted to be able to see the reflective tape from somewhere other than in line with the shrapnel, but I put enough on the face that I could compare readings.
  The first run I took video with one hand and controlled the throttle bar with the other, then I switched to the tachometer and re-started the engine.

WOW!!  This engine will climb to 2500 rpm so fast you don't know it's gone!  Past that the black smoke starts (along with squirts from my adrenal gland) until the valves float(?) and the popping starts with puffs of white smoke.  I pushed the 'record' button on the tach  and, after several partial shutdowns to rearrange my escape path, let it climb to 3855 rpm.!  It  *might* have gone a little higher if I'd let it try, but I'd seen (all too close) what I wanted to see and there's no use doing it just for grins.

I monkeyed with the governor bar.  It takes about six pounds of pressure by hand on the yellow knob to make it slow to 1500 rpm.  If released it immediately goes into boogety boogity mode.  The governor bar just hangs out and rattles back and forth when the engine is in full runaway.  The six pounds is the spring inside the rubber sleeve on the throttle bar.  The governor is somehow 'disconnected'.

Here's the innards of a MP governor--

http://community.webshots.com/photo/2817818680028237237LaeogP

I don't yet  know  HOW it can DO this!!

Comments welcome.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mobile_bob

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2006, 02:24:17 AM »
tater:

you arent kidding anyone...

we all know you are trying to qualify your petter for indy next year :)

wow, you da man, you must have balls the size of watermelons,,, lol

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Quinnf

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 02:32:30 AM »
Was that your hand shaking that blurred the pic? 

You know, if you want to see how fast it can REALLY go, maybe advance the timing a little and fire it up again!

You're a better man than I, Gunga-Din!

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

hotater

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 02:38:59 AM »
I just can't help but wonder about what gyroscopic effect of the flywheel would have on a go cart..... ??? ::)

I had just tightened down the hold down bolts on the engine.....smooth as silk until the missfiring starts, then it rattles some.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

sid

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 02:54:56 AM »
i know how you feel with that run away//the times mine ran away i did not give it a chance to run very long.but it is amazine how fast it can reach.. those engine need a throtle on it instead of the pre adjusted speed//I have one of each/ I will not run the one like you have/ it is too dangerouse// they should be used only for spare parts or destroyed..they should of never been sold//but i love the one with the throtle i have a 3 and a 6 hp and both run very good// I will try to post a picture of the throttle on one and it should not be too hard to make one//sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

hotater

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 03:29:00 AM »
THat's a good idea, Sid.  Just pull the governor parts out of it and take the spring off the throttle bar (or leave it on) and make a knob, lever, pedal to run it.

I have confidence in the engine a LONG ways more than I did before, but the fact it's bolted to 20 sacks of concrete COULD be a factor in my standing around a whirling dervish while it snorts diesel fuel by the pint.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

emerald

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 07:13:45 PM »
Hotater, I was looking forward to a video on a working engine with no smoke, only to discover you went and created a whole new story line for your new adventure!

The black and white smoke shows us it was burning lots of fuel and the timing was way off. No blue smoke though and that is a good sign.

I have just been pouring over the engine diagram and the problem is most likely a binding or badly machined linkage. This was usually the Listeroid problem in the early days with their throttle linkage. I dislike the plain same metal on metal approach they take. A little bush made from phosper bronze would solve it. Even Listers original CS engine has a terrible linkage and I replace those external ones with rose joints.

Take a few measurements and I bet you'll see the problem easier that way than just fiddling about with the various pins. Another thing that was common on the Listeroids and may apply here, the weights were not always machined true and they wouldnt pivot very well on the pin.

You should get it running right without much more drama and I doubt you have done any damage. I know people who have ran those engines to 2400RPM for extended periods.

If I can find Speilbergs number I will pass it on to you, there could be a sequal coming up :)


Emerald

hotater

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2006, 07:54:32 PM »
Emerald--

I figured out what I did... I have a new Canon S-2 IS camera with several settings for video quality.  Of course I had it on 'Speilberg ready', hi-res, and 30 frames a second so it plays on MY computer as plain as a VCR does a TV, but the dang things are 35meg!!

I'm going to run it again as soon as I mount a throttle on it.  It's a pump, the load is steady once the pump primes.  I don't need a govenor.

RE black and white smoke--   Right again.   The timing was WAY off at high rpms.  I would imagine the fuel pump tappet was floating and maybe a couple of valves, too.  Whatever it is makes it a self-limiting wreck and acts as a governor (before a dry bearing does it for us!). 

I'll bet the rings are seated!!    :o
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mkdutchman

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2006, 08:19:10 PM »
Hotater--
I would REALLY like to see those videos!

europachris

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 12:30:05 AM »
Hotater, you should be able to compress the video down to a manageable size.  I know I can select the quality when I run the digital tape down to the computer for whatever quality/size I want. I just don't recall how I can do that post capture.  I think I can select what I'm saving it too (format wise) and it will pare it down to fit in the resolution required.

Chris

sid

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 02:46:21 AM »
jack.. you are on the rite track. what it need is a throtle control to keep it at a pre set speed // I think it can not respond quick enough to keep it from running away..just a simple ratchet lever on a cable or control rod attached to the control arm will work.. you will not have to disconect anything. leave the springs on and attach a control rod to the control arm and it will work// still trying to get pictures of one///sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

sid

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 03:12:57 AM »
jack// I sent you an e mail with a picture of the linkage// I could not post on the forum// the usual problems // feel free to post it if you can// if any one else wants a picture, just e mail me and I will send it//sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

hotater

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 03:55:30 AM »
Sid--

Thanks!  That's what I had in mind but on the other side since my flywheel is reversed.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/2662122290028237237OQQizJ
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

hotater

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2006, 10:18:52 PM »
Video of the MP is posted here----

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6145424973956719749

The first part is of it running fine.  The second part is after it ran away and I re-fueled it and experimented some...THEN took the video. 

 The highest rpm seen here is estimated  at 3200.  I later ran it while using the digital tachometer and measured just over 3800.

I'll take bids on another video shoot.    :P
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

bitsnpieces1

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Re: RUNAWAY MP Pump!!
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2006, 11:04:22 PM »
 :o  Guess that helps with the issue of flywheels coming apart.  :o
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).