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Author Topic: CS cylinder repair  (Read 570 times)

olNick

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CS cylinder repair
« on: March 29, 2022, 12:20:29 PM »
Hi all,

This cylinder is from my early 10/2 that I've finally started work on.
There is a fairly deep (~2mm) ridge from water damage I'm guessing. The ridge is about 5 inches down the bore.

While I know about re-sleeving, could this ridge be brazed with bronze or brass? and then bored and honed to size.
Cook the cylinder on the BBQ and the braze...

I'd like to keep the chrome on the cylinder as much as possible. The other cylinder seems to be fine.

I would also think that 5 inches down the bore the is minimal combustion pressure, temp as, IIRC, the power stroke ends at about 50* in a 4 stroke...

I am also contacting a firm here that can spray the ID and finish to size..
They say they can spray whatever metal is desired (e.g. chrome based) etc...

regards,
nick
PS This will be a working machine


mihit

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2022, 06:25:51 AM »
I would not pick dis-similar metals, I think they'd heat unevenly and the union would fail, wear unevenly (and you'd be back to your groove) or fail spectacularly and you'd have chunks of brass out your exhaust and a piston go sideways on ya.

Spray welding sounds like the exact thing. Never done it with chrome powder, but if the pros say it can work, I'd trust it can work.

When I was doing spray welding (Iron moulds for glass) we would do it on cold stock, and just heat the area we were building up with a very fine flame.

38ac

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2022, 05:05:33 PM »
No,  it wont work, the cylinder would be so far out of round when you got done brazing or any kind of  welding that would be worthless, but there is no need to take my word for it weld her up. It's no good now so you won't be ruining a cherry

« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 05:07:34 PM by 38ac »
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mike90045

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2022, 10:47:34 PM »
if enough ice formed to deform the cyl, I'd mag flux it to look for any micro cracks before repairing. 

mihit

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2022, 05:59:37 AM »
No,  it wont work, the cylinder would be so far out of round when you got done brazing or any kind of  welding that would be worthless, but there is no need to take my word for it weld her up. It's no good now so you won't be ruining a cherry

Have you done this before?

We were held to some pretty tight tolerances on mould repair, and after machining you wouldn't know we'd even been there.

broncodriver99

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2022, 07:37:17 AM »
Ice can and will move the world, there is no stopping it. Litterally.

I made a bunch of calls and did a lot of research a few years ago trying to salvage an original cylinder and the general concensus that I ended up with was that most of the spray coatings were not diesel friendly. Primarilly due to the sulfur content in diesel but also the combuation pressures. As long as you are running good refined low sulfur diesel everything seems to be ok for the most part but questionable and higher sulphur content diesel can cause some issues.

IIRC BMW had a really big issue with the Nikasil coating they were using on their diesels causing them to replace a ton of engines under warranty. From what I remember they ended up using a different process, alumisil, I think on some engines and going to steel cylinder sleeves on the majority of their diesels.

I would have that cylinder bored and sleeved if it is going to be anything other than a show engine. It's just not worth the time, effort, energy, and expense to risk it. It will fail, just a matter of when. A sleeve on the other hand will give years of service and once the machining is done replacing a sleeve is cheaper and easier down the road.

mikenash

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2022, 08:24:03 AM »
Plus one on the sleeve.  By far the most pragmatic way to go.  And once it's done there is endless fun to be had canvassing the many and varied opinions on which piston rings to use :)

olNick

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2022, 08:58:04 AM »
Thanx for all the replies.

Note that this was water damage, and not ice/frost.

Anyway, got a quote from one of the 2 machine shops here. They want about 100 bucks to re-sleeve, liner included, and about 70-80 if I supply the liners, but maybe that's not a good idea as I saw a post by 38C where if something goes wrong, it becomes a blame game...

I forgot to ask liners material, AFAIU typically it's  centrifugally spun CI.

I'm waiting for a quote on 2 liners from the big city of Athens..
Im ASSuming the cost includes finish honing to the existing piston.

I have to assess the second liner and see...

nick

BTW did anyone see my post wrt Laystall?

38ac

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2022, 11:42:32 AM »
No,  it wont work, the cylinder would be so far out of round when you got done brazing or any kind of  welding that would be worthless, but there is no need to take my word for it weld her up. It's no good now so you won't be ruining a cherry

Have you done this before?

We were held to some pretty tight tolerances on mould repair, and after machining you wouldn't know we'd even been there.

I did not type up a novelette for an answer because I'm not into that.  It takes forever with two fingers and doesn't convince those who don't want to be convinced.

 He asked if he could save the original Listard chrome with a patch, that pretty well eliminates any machine work after welding does it not? There is no doubt that the cylinder will be pulled out of round by welding or brazing, they are a heck of a lot less ridged than most suspect. Yes it could be fixed by welding,, if he is hell bent and money is no object as its a heck of a lot more complicated than weld a patch and grind.
 First bore the cylinder to remove the chrome and about .030" of cast iron. Then a spin figure must be made to rotate the cylinder while it is welded with some suitable material that is machinable and will allow for bonding of the chome. Then it must be bored to make it round again and to size plus the chrome thickness and less for honing. Then it must be chrome plated and honed with diamonds. The welding will also pull both ends out of square so clean up cuts on the deck and base will be required using a fixture that centers on the bore.  All in its a process reserved for only the most rare and expensive pieces, certainly not for a part that is easily replaced or properly repaired.
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olNick

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2022, 12:31:00 PM »
Hope it was understood that I've scrapped the braze/we/d/spray idea from your replies.
As 38ac said this is not the the last CS on the planet....

I re-sleeving, and thanx to all for replying...

On to the big ends... next post

nick

mihit

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2022, 05:49:11 AM »
No,  it wont work, the cylinder would be so far out of round when you got done brazing or any kind of  welding that would be worthless, but there is no need to take my word for it weld her up. It's no good now so you won't be ruining a cherry

Have you done this before?

We were held to some pretty tight tolerances on mould repair, and after machining you wouldn't know we'd even been there.

I did not type up a novelette for an answer because I'm not into that.  It takes forever with two fingers and doesn't convince those who don't want to be convinced.

 He asked if he could save the original Listard chrome with a patch, that pretty well eliminates any machine work after welding does it not? There is no doubt that the cylinder will be pulled out of round by welding or brazing, they are a heck of a lot less ridged than most suspect. Yes it could be fixed by welding,, if he is hell bent and money is no object as its a heck of a lot more complicated than weld a patch and grind.
 First bore the cylinder to remove the chrome and about .030" of cast iron. Then a spin figure must be made to rotate the cylinder while it is welded with some suitable material that is machinable and will allow for bonding of the chome. Then it must be bored to make it round again and to size plus the chrome thickness and less for honing. Then it must be chrome plated and honed with diamonds. The welding will also pull both ends out of square so clean up cuts on the deck and base will be required using a fixture that centers on the bore.  All in its a process reserved for only the most rare and expensive pieces, certainly not for a part that is easily replaced or properly repaired.

My thinking was more like... fill the damage with this chrome sprayweld stuff, hog it back to near flush with a file, then hone. No fixturing or machining required.

Spray welding is done with very local heat, and the rest of the thing is a massive heat sink, so yeah, done as an almost cold-welding process, there absolutely IS doubt that it "will" be pulled out of round.

It's why I asked if you'd done it before...and had an idea of the process.
'Cos I have arc-welded CI without distortion, and spent more than a little time spray welding. (Manual machinist and trade engineer, too.)

It's not that I can't be convinced...it just takes evidence, not novellas of overcomplication.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 07:59:24 AM by mihit »

dkmc

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2022, 04:07:58 AM »

I just want to mention, $100 to re-sleeve and liner included sounds cheaper than dirt. Is this a for profit shop or a hobby shop?? I'd be interested to hear how the job turns out.

38ac

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2022, 11:15:18 AM »

I just want to mention, $100 to re-sleeve and liner included sounds cheaper than dirt.

It is, I use Melling and L.A. Sleeve and the sleeves cost me about $70 with shipping. Add to that a half a day of machine and hone work. 
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mobile_bob

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2022, 12:33:39 PM »
if you can get it resleeved for a hundred bucks then +1 from me!

a good sleeve will last a very long time, and i wouldn't worry about hard chroming the bore.

bob g
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mikenash

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Re: CS cylinder repair
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2022, 07:49:44 PM »
Shop here quoted me $410 to supply a sleeve, re-bore, press-fit and hone.  Half a day's work I think he said