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Author Topic: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought  (Read 1791 times)

veggie

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Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« on: January 22, 2022, 04:01:39 AM »

While researching Ethanol and Methanol as a blend for used oil in my Listeroid, I came across
some data suggesting that diesels converted to run on methanol or ethanol make very little waste in the form of pollution.
Some European diesel engine builders are experimenting with such a fuel.
Food for thought, does an engine fueled by methanol automatically meet North American pollution requirements
because it burns so clean. The indians would happily stamp "ETHANOL ENGINE" instead of diesel on the name tag.
Below is a exert from the article....

Methanol in Diesel Engines
There has been interest in finding ways to use methanol for compression ignition (CI) (diesel) engines.
Methanol's high-octane number is an indication of its very low cetane number, the measure of a fuel's auto
ignitibility.70 For methanol the number is so low that it cannot be measured directly. But it could be used in
conjunction with another fuel that is more auto ignitable or an ignition improver.
In the 1980s, the Detroit Diesel Company (DDC) and MAN produced modified versions of their CI engines
which ran on “ignition improved” methanol fuel (the ignition improver constituted about 5% by volume of the
fuel). The MAN engine was a four-stroke engine using spark-assisted ignition whilst the DDC engines operated
on the two-stroke cycle, controlling the scavenge ratio to assist ignition. More recently, VTT has tested MD95, a
mix of 95% methanol and 5% ignition improver. This was done using a Scania ED95 engine, which is an engine
modified to enable compression ignition operation on a mix of 95% ethanol and 5% ignition improver through
the adoption of an increased compression ratio (28:1, to increase end-of-compression temperature for easier
ignition of the low cetane fuel), and a suitable fuel injection system.
A methanol-diesel dual-fuel approach, where each is injected directly in the combustion chambers, is a
common approach that is being used commercially today. MAN uses it for low-speed two-stroke engines and
Wärtsilä uses it for medium-speed four-stroke engines. There are other approaches as well. For example, glow
plug ignition enables the compression ignition engine to run solely on methanol, without the requirement of a
pilot fuel to serve as the ignition source.71 Another solution, particularly when looking at retrofit options is
introducing methanol into the engine’s intake ports, which requires adding a low pressure methanol fueling
system and port fuel injectors. Finally, very recently research engines have been run on methanol in
homogeneous charge compression ignition (HCCI) mode and partially premixed combustion mode (PPC). Both
concepts rely on delaying the autoignition until after the fuel injection event has been completed to allow for
enough mixing time so that fuel-rich zones are reduced or eliminated, to decrease soot formation and speed up
combustion for higher efficiency.
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BruceM

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2022, 07:31:12 AM »
Don't hold your breath.  Mark Cherry came up with a method of using a low compression platinum wire catalyst "smart plug" and then proved that high water alcohol fuels could even be burned with it. They burn at a lower temperature and thus have virtually no nitrous oxides or other pollutants.  He called it smartplugs. 

http://smartplugs.com
http://smartplugs.com/fuels/aqueousfuels.htm

He got no takers but a Darpa one fuels forward program funding for some work.
There was zero interest in his development by any engine manufacturer.
I built a version based on his patent for a 2 hp Honda 4 cycle outboard I converted to run on methanol, for my West Wight Potter sailboat. It allowed me to remove the magneto/spark system and just use a 2V battery for starting only.  I had to modify the carburetor and raise the compression, but with that, it ran quite well.  Methanol takes about twice the fuel flow volume for the same power as gasoline. 

Mark's work with high water content alcohol and other fuels used a modest current to heat the platinum element.  He also used that DC current to the platinum elements in later work to provide ignition advance for acceleration. 

A good idea, even with working hardware, independent test data, etc. was not enough to overcome institutional resistance to change.  Concern about pollution is only a marketing game. 
There's zero chance the EPA will let non-compliant diesel engines be sold as alcohol only burners. 

« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 07:37:36 AM by BruceM »

38ac

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2022, 12:26:14 PM »
Speaking only to tbe importation question the EPA here in the states has two basic categories of engines.  Compression ignition and Non-compression thus all are subject to compliance no matter the fuel. None the less it would be easier to get an engine with a simple fuel management system to pass the regs if it was fueled by Natural gas or propane and not compression ignition.

As it pertains to the off grid user or hobbies interest in cheap prime movers the problems still exist,
1. The cost to get an engine certified is tremendous and you get no discount because you only plan to sell 20
2. Add in price increases of anying from India.
3. Demand is almost non existant, ask anyone who has engines or parts kits for sale.

Lots of engines were sold around bere when they cost $500. I dare say that the bulk of them were never used for anything serious and a good many never used period.

Maybe I should just sit back and read when these posts come up because I am always the negative Nancy, but anyone who wants to buy a Listeroid can contact me about the ones that have been sitting around here for 6 years, no tbey are not $500 ;D
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BruceM

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2022, 03:11:13 PM »
I tend to digress.  Thanks Butch for the clear eyed assessment.
I think the India parts for Lister CS types will continue to make them viable working engines for a long time. 



cujet

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2022, 09:49:05 PM »
While a bit off the topic, there is clear evidence that regulators now pretend to believe that batteries can "generate power". The new CA regulations now forbid small engines of any sort, and instead require using a battery, such as a Tesla Power Wall, for home power during an emergency. The absurdity of this is not lost on anyone here, as a single $11K, 13Kwh battery can, at best run a home for half a day. God forbid it needs to operate the 4500W water heater, 2HP well pump and 5 ton air conditioner. Then one can expect, at best, 1 hour of service.

I don't believe our "betters" are going to let us continue to go down the internal combustion engine path. Fuel will become ever more expensive, parts scarce, and new production units will be cost prohibitive. Enjoy your solar panels and batteries, as that will eventually be your only "Choice".

I don't know if any of you have shipped heavy goods lately. Shipping costs are 4x ++ what they were just 2 years ago. What used to cost $4-500 is now well north of $2000. Importing Listeroid parts may still be possible, at great cost. Couple that with the fact that we do not make small engines here anymore and we have a perfect situation for mandatory battery power.

No joke, shipping 10 pounds from Florida to Germany is now over $300!!!
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 09:55:56 PM by cujet »
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38ac

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2022, 12:38:20 AM »
I have brought over 4 shipment of parts fron India the last couple years, probably 1000 lbs total and for estimate purposes I double what the parts cost for shipping. Shipping for two 6/1 crankshafts were almost $600
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 12:41:31 AM by 38ac »
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Tanman

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2022, 05:25:32 AM »
IMO the best way to import these is not to import engines but parts. The question is when does an engine go from parts to an engine legally. Based on my conversations with cbp that is a very grey line.
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KC7NOA

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2022, 04:43:34 AM »
Just like in ham radio -- assembled-- linears ... it depends on how many are done in a year ...

Qrp radios are popular and so are linears for those radios, but it's not legal to import linears that reach full output with less than 50w drive .. sooo, kits are all over the place to buy.

38ac

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2022, 11:01:49 AM »
IMO the best way to import these is not to import engines but parts. The question is when does an engine go from parts to an engine legally. Based on my conversations with cbp that is a very grey line.

Correct, there is no black and white, it's up to the opinion if whoever inspects it, if its inspected.  Engines are not like firearms where there is a certain serial numbered part that is technically a firearm by law and everything else is just parts. If I were importing ts not a boundary that would be pushed to the inch I don't think?  The parts kits I have seen had an assembled crankcase with head, cylinder block and fuel injection equipment removed.
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keith71

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2022, 04:04:00 PM »
Shipping for two 6/1 crankshafts were almost $600....  $600 for "just the shipping" ? Sounds a bit extreme.
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38ac

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2022, 05:17:02 PM »
Sorry I didn't post that correctly shipping was $500, the crankshafts was $100
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keith71

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2022, 07:51:54 PM »
The crankcase and flywheels are the tough ones to ship. DEV a listeroid parts seller will sell a 6/1 either roller bearing or bush type crankshaft for $235 including shipping. If you buy 2 they will sell them for $230 each. $460 for 2 cranks sent by DHL seems like a good deal.                                                                                                                                         

I am of the opinion also that these need to be purchased in a box of just the main parts,  like crankcase, crankshaft,  flywheels.  Cylinder and head could be found else where and will add to much weight to the shipment.  All the other parts to finish these engines are pretty easily to find in the USA. And most of the rest of the parts to complete one are inexpensive.  Of course this may interest less people who have to look for parts and then assemble their own. They have to disasembled anyway to clean the crap out of them.
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keith71

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2022, 08:00:27 PM »
IMO the best way to import these is not to import engines but parts. The question is when does an engine go from parts to an engine legally. Based on my conversations with cbp that is a very grey line.
                                                                                                                                                                       

You can already buy them from Gary at DES as a kit where the bottom end is assembled and the top end is in another box on the same crate roughly $2300 plus shipping for a 6/1.                                                                                                   
Jim Caldor in Ontario Canada sells them as air compressors to his customers in the USA. Also roughly $2400. Sends the cylinder head and fuel system parts in a different box a few days later.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 08:03:06 PM by keith71 »
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keith71

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2022, 08:08:43 PM »
I have been contacting one of the India companies that sells listeroid parts. They are one of the few that actually have the foundry to pour cast iron. Most of the rest are just parts assemblers that get their parts form the few bigger companies there. This company advertises a 6/1 empty crankcase and will ship to USA. Have not received a complete price yet but it is possible. Cant see the EPA complaining about a cast iron block being shipped here.
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sirpedrosa

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Re: Import of Listeroids - Food for thought
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2022, 09:13:29 PM »
Hi keith71

Are sure about that?

Maybe all costoms officers are morons and dont know what is a engine crank case, and think it is only a piece of fourniture to put flower pots!

Just think about.

Stay safe
VP
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!
Deutz MAH 914, 1952 - Wating for the Zündfix to fire up.