Puppeteer

Author Topic: Big end wear or damage  (Read 2587 times)

Yellownev

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2022, 12:27:05 AM »
Hi,

Iíve not forgotten youÖ. But been poorly had the Covid and some other med changes meant I wasnít in the right place to be at the boat.

Couple of weeks ago I did get over and got the cap off and old bearings out. Some superficial scratches to the journal that Iíve just about polished out. Now the buggerÖ. I ordered standard size  shells in ignorance and on inspecting what came out they were already over size no doubt to compensate for some turning of the crankshaft before the engine was marinised. So Iím now waiting for a set of the same ( as they were the largest I can fit ) my hope is as they were shimmed so I can reduce or remove the shims to get the required fit and clearance. I think this point was made earlier in the thread.

One question would you normally lube the new bearings with engine assembly lube or just the same oil that goes in the engine ?

As and when the new shells arrive and I am able Iíll update again. Thanks for all the advice so far.

As a ps rightly or wrongly I used my torque wrench to undo the nuts and it needed to be at 90nm to get them off ?

Take care and thanks again

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2022, 11:15:52 AM »
The India engines as shipped usually have one shim each side. The shims are usually .003" Your situation is different as the crank has been ground since it left India and could have been sized with or without shims.
 There are sticky assembly lubes around and any of them do a good job but they are not necessary on a CS.  A bit of oil works while you are asssembling and prior to starting you simply remove the crankcase door and give the rods and mains a squirt of oil.  A problem with India twins, and singles is miss marked dip sticks. Be sure to confirm proper oil level on the rod dippers and remark the dip stick if needed.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Yellownev

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2022, 09:32:58 PM »
The India engines as shipped usually have one shim each side. The shims are usually .003" Your situation is different as the crank has been ground since it left India and could have been sized with or without shims.
 There are sticky assembly lubes around and any of them do a good job but they are not necessary on a CS.  A bit of oil works while you are asssembling and prior to starting you simply remove the crankcase door and give the rods and mains a squirt of oil.  A problem with India twins, and singles is miss marked dip sticks. Be sure to confirm proper oil level on the rod dippers and remark the dip stick if needed.

Hi thanks for the reply and further advice. When I removed the cap it had .003 shims on the crankcase door side and .00145 on the other side? I suspect as you say the dipstick was marked very conservatively. When I refill it I'll re mark it - what level should i fill to with respect to the rod dippers?

Kind regards

 

Powdermonkey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2022, 11:38:36 PM »
The Lister manuals show a picture.  Not any "measurements" associated.  Basically, you want the oil level NO HIGHER than the bottom of the connecting rod end cap.  The dipper can be fully submerged. 

Hugh Conway

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2022, 05:18:08 AM »
Re: oil level dipstick..
I think the dipstick is not relevant. Oil level in a Lister and most listeroids is determined by the top reservoir being full, as it is automatically via the oil pump. The oil quantity in the lower sump should be about 1/2' below the removable cover in the lower sump.
I have never used the dipstick in my Listeroid. A real Dursley does not have a dipstick.....not necessary. Oil can never touch the con rod end cap, as that level is determined by the weir of the upper sump.
Dipper should be installed as a blade, not sideways, and needs to clear the bottom of the upper sump.
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

38ac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2095
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2022, 12:43:46 PM »
Hugh, while you are correct for a single with two sumps the India twins have one sump. The mains get oil from the pump and the rods, and cam are oiled via splash from the dippers. Thus the  sump level is critical for proper oiling. The India twins suffer for thus when used in a portable application as a small amount of tilt means one rod cap is submerged and the other dipper is out of the oil. The crankcase webbing prevents much crossover oiling from side to side. I suspect that the OPs crank bearing woes could be traced back to this. I have seen it twice in engines through my shop.
Collector and horder of about anything diesel

Yellownev

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2022, 01:05:09 PM »
Hugh, while you are correct for a single with two sumps the India twins have one sump. The mains get oil from the pump and the rods, and cam are oiled via splash from the dippers. Thus the  sump level is critical for proper oiling. The India twins suffer for thus when used in a portable application as a small amount of tilt means one rod cap is submerged and the other dipper is out of the oil. The crankcase webbing prevents much crossover oiling from side to side. I suspect that the OPs crank bearing woes could be traced back to this. I have seen it twice in engines through my shop.

My engine is in a canal boat so subject to the risks cited above of a portable install. Iíll certainly be more aware of the oil level as Iíll be able to precisely see what amount is needed and to what level on the dip stick when I refill. Iím not clear on why itís a bad thing for the rod cap itself ( and therefore the bearing) to be in the oilÖ. Thanks again for your advice and experience it is very valuable to me

Hugh Conway

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2022, 05:25:13 PM »
Yellonev & 38AC
Thanks for that clarification, I'm only familiar with the singles, and had no idea of the internal layout of the twins.
Always something new to learn, even on these old-time machines!
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

Yellownev

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2022, 09:44:50 PM »
Hi, to complete the original call for help, which was answered admirably, thank you - the engine is now back up and running.

I was able to polish out some light scoring of the journal and replaced the bearings using plastigauge to check the clearance which was 3 thou with 6 thou shims fitted both sides.

I torqued up the nuts to 90nm which was what I calculated was their setting when I removed them. I needed an extra small movement to get the holes lined up for the split pins.

The whitworth spanners ( wrenches) and sockets i brought were very useful.

I was able to double check the oil dip stick settings and it was good just at the bottom of the caps with the dippers totally immersed.

The whole sump was cleaned out as was the strainer and the magnet at the end of it ( nothing on it ) I primed the oil pump and checked it operation on running

The biggest challenge was knowledge, confidence and confined space.... the latter manageable despite being in the small engine room on my canal boat.

I now have the confidence to clean out the sump at the required hours ( albeit necessitated draining 10 litres of coolant, removing the starter, alternator and water pump. All no doubt meat and drink to you engineers out there but for this novice a challenge of recording everything and taking a lot of time to double check everything.

Pleasingly the engine fired first turn of the key and settled with not noise to its normal tick over which I let run for the first hour. We then did a small cruise keeping the revs to tick over most of the time.

A huge thanks to all who gave concise common sense advice and guidance and have stayed with me over my ( extended) learning for this work. I feel I know so much more about my engine thanks to your support and encouragement. Sincere thanks, virtual pints all around - sorry warm brown English beer I'm afraid !!

cujet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 924
  • Lister power rules!
    • View Profile
    • www.cujet.com
Re: Big end wear or damage
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2022, 11:12:09 PM »
Good Job! How about a new video of the engine in operation.
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence