Author Topic: What factors make it durable?  (Read 348 times)

bigbad

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What factors make it durable?
« on: October 29, 2021, 03:21:15 PM »
I like this forum - like the way you folks think.  Am I in trouble?   ;D

What makes them so durable?  The mass of the block?  Slow speed?  Dual pulleys to even the load?

veggie

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2021, 06:39:14 PM »
What makes them so durable?  The mass of the block?  Slow speed?  Dual pulleys to even the load?

All of the above. Especially the slow speed and low horsepower.
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

cujet

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2021, 10:36:02 PM »
I like this forum - like the way you folks think.  Am I in trouble?   ;D

What makes them so durable?  The mass of the block?  Slow speed?  Dual pulleys to even the load?

In the end, I'm not sure the Indian Listeroids are all that durable when compared to the lifespan of a quality modern engine. They are primitive and simple designs, extremely easy to repair, modify, improve, and are tolerant of a great many alternative fuels without much risk to (modern) expensive fuel injectors and pumps.  I'm using waste Jet-A as the fuel in mine. They love it.

But to say that a Listeroid with it's open pushrods, cast iron cylinder liner, cast iron piston rings and non pressure lubricated bearings is somehow capable of lasting many hours longer than modern engines is not really correct. It would be interesting to know who has the highest number of hours, without major repairs!

My engines do not have a huge number of hours on them, but they were both used post hurricanes for many weeks. They held up fine, sipped fuel, were quiet, pleasant and so on.

Here is my late friend Bob showing off his creation. An engine I ended up with.

https://youtu.be/a7Kz7uFOm84
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 10:38:37 PM by cujet »
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mobile_bob

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2021, 11:51:17 PM »
its been a very long time since i have seen rocketboy mentioned, i assume that he is your friend bob?

wow, what happened to him?

his setup is so pretty, so well detailed.  he gets a pile of points for that.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

cujet

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2021, 02:49:18 AM »
its been a very long time since i have seen rocketboy mentioned, i assume that he is your friend bob?

wow, what happened to him?

his setup is so pretty, so well detailed.  he gets a pile of points for that.

bob g

I sent a PM, let me know if received.
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BruceM

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2021, 06:02:08 PM »
Bigbad's earlier posts are around a trailer mounted power, compressor, etc., for way off grid construction, welding and camping support.  I don't see a Lister CS or clone/Listeroid being ideal for that because of the size and weight, and you'd have to go at least an 8/1 for much of a welder, and that's still fairly modest.  The big upside is the sound levels, not the durability. I concur with Cujet on that.  I have plenty of off grid neighbors running 15+ year old Honda backup generators that still start and run fine.  For camping, you can't beat the small inverter-generator units, preferably propane. Compact, lightweight, quiet and very fuel efficient for small loads. 

That said, I know that Dave (XYZer) has built fork liftable frame, modular CS gensets that are first class; they make sense for long hours of farm pumping or other situation where the droning of 1800 or 3600 rpm gensets would be objectionable, and a forklift or tractor lift provides the mobility.

I think sound is perhaps the best reason for picking a Lister CS type engine.  My Metro 6/1 Listeroid (splash only lube, 5 bolt head) has about 3500 hrs now.  It gets water/methanol under load now so I no longer have to decoke every few hundred hours. (The knocking used to tell me when.)   I'm careful to avoid light loads or idling, something I'd recommend a propane engine for.  I saw what some idling does during my home construction before I had my remote start/stop setup; the engine cokes up much faster.










cujet

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2021, 01:48:12 AM »
  The big upside is the sound levels, not the durability. 

The 6-1 is an absolute dream when it comes to sound levels. Very, very pleasant. Mine has been durable enough, and I'm glad to hear you have 3500 hours, that's fantastic.

I also really like the ease of repair, it is a major strong point. My 2 engines started life in 2005 and both are still running perfectly. But even if I had neglected them and (for example) let the fuel gel in the injector, a few spares and an hour would have them powering my house. I can't imagine the struggle of finding a Kubota 3 cylinder injection pump and 3 new injectors a day after (fictional) Hurricane Brenda just cleansed the landscape of all things Human. The listeroid will run, and it will run perfectly on Olive Oil, filtered waste motor oil, and a noxious mix of used hydraulic fluid and 10% gasoline or any other oily fuel one can dream up. What's not to love about that?

Oh, and my engines will outlive me and my needs by a century if necessary.
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Hugh Conway

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2021, 09:55:21 PM »

What make them so durable?
Overbuilt and low stressed components.
Our listeroid now has about 2600 hours on it. It's been used for the last 9 years for off-grid battery charging. Not much sun up here in winter. I change oil every 250 hours and run marked diesel in it.
Have not had any particular issues other than head gasket water leakage, which have long been resolved, I don't have a water injection system though do run a litre of water through it every so often with a garden sprayer while it is under load.
Our Dursley 6/1 really has only a few (less than 100) hours on it and gets used for heavy shop loads. It was pretty worn when we got it, we did a shade tree refurbish (a strong point) and it performs well, though does not hold frequency as well as the listeriod.
I have a Honda 2500 watt inverter gen for occasional remote power tool use, it's light and handy.
The Honda is a throw-away, but the two heavies will last forever with a few inexpensive parts replacements.
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

cujet

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2021, 02:53:02 PM »
While not a hard and fast rule, a car with 100,000 miles may show about 3000 hours. 150,000 miles may show 4500 hours. Air cooled Aircraft piston engines traditionally have a TBO of 2000 hours and will last 3300 hours if flown regularly. Jet engines often have a "hot section" at 4000 hours and overhaul at 8000.

So the little Listeroid is well within the normal range for conventional engines.

However, a Cummins 4BT genset is rated at 13,500 hours. In non generator use, 6000 hours. Often they last far longer, that's the official rating!


So, while many of us know of cars that make it to 300,000 miles or about 9000 hours, that is far more rare than we'd like to admit. The raw numbers seem to be that "OF" the very best vehicles around (toyota, and the big 3 trucks) 0.2% of them will top 300K miles. Most will fail before that, generally due to poor maintenance, neglect or accidents.



But once again, I'm not going to fuel my modern VM diesel, with it's 30,000 PSI high pressure digital injection system a diet of used motor oil, rancid olive oil, waste jet fuel, filtered fryer oil and 15 year old diesel fuel cut with gasoline. That's a job for a Listeroid.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 03:01:45 PM by cujet »
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mobile_bob

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2021, 04:39:28 PM »
i suppose there are always exceptions, but the japanese diesel engines used in datsun, toyota, isuzu and others have proven to be nearly indestructible.

i recall working for a time for a roof truss company north of seattle, they gave me an old '81 datsun 3/4 ton with a 4 cyl diesel, they told me maybe i should service it as no one remembered the last time it had an oil change

the oil came out black as sin, but that is no big deal in a diesel, however the thing had 186k miles on the clock and was running the original primary fuel filter, still had the factory marks on it.  the air filter i could not get out of the housing, as it was a solid dirt clod

i removed the complete assy, beat it to death with a rubber mallet to get the clod broke up and get the filter out, it to might have been original, i never looked that close.  took a steam cleaner to all the piping and housing to clean it out, and put it all back together.

i overheated the thing one morning, the dash lights didn't work, and i had no idea it was hot, broke an oil cooler water hose, and blew the head gasket,... pulled the head, cleaned it all up, put in new gasket and away we go again.

lost the front brg in the trans at 220k,  center rivets failed in the clutch soon thereafter, i don't recall why we didn't change the clutch when we replaced the trans.

at 331k miles the little truck was sold for 300 dollars, and for all i know the little bugger is still running somewhere.

it was the only 4 wheel vehicle i could run along side a push start  on cold mornings.

a courier company i did business with had 60+ G series 3/4 ton chevy van's with 350 cu/in small blocks, they were impeccably maintained and they routinely got 350-400k miles out of them before they were sold.  they had all the normal stuff replaced on a scheduled basis, no running to failure, they knew exactly when to change every part of the van, such as 91k miles for an alternator, 75k miles for a starter, waterpumps, timing chains etc,  they hardly ever had a breakdown. and i bought a couple of their old vans for friends to pull the engines out of for other projects. 

fwiw, they used series 3, 15/40 motor oil (same as used in the cummins powered fl-70 freightliners) and they changed the oil in those vans every 10k miles!

i never understood how that work, other than the engines started at 5am and didn't shut off again until they came in at around 4:30 in the afternoon.  so i have no idea how many hours were on the oil changes at 10k miles but it had to be a bunch.

i think engines can last a very long time with excellent maintenance, and not started, stopped for short runs a dozen times a day.  locomotive engines are an example of long lived engine's, i don't think they are ever shut down.

bob g
 
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veggie

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2021, 06:54:30 PM »
I think sound is perhaps the best reason for picking a Lister CS type engine.  My Metro 6/1 Listeroid (splash only lube, 5 bolt head) has about 3500 hrs now.  It gets water/methanol under load now so I no longer have to decoke every few hundred hours. (The knocking used to tell me when.)   I'm careful to avoid light loads or idling, something I'd recommend a propane engine for.  I saw what some idling does during my home construction before I had my remote start/stop setup; the engine cokes up much faster.

BruceM,

If you are running propane do you need water injection at all ?
I was under the impression that propane leaves virtually zero carbon buildup in engines.

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 15, 2021, 06:56:02 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

BruceM

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Re: What factors make it durable?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2021, 08:06:12 PM »
Hey Veggie,
My Listeroid 6/1 is diesel and will likely remain so. 

My neighbor's DES 8/1 is the one I converted to propane. Where sound and exhaust pollution is the biggest problem, you can't beat an 8/1 converted to propane, with a leach field muffler.