Author Topic: Lister CE endplay adjustment  (Read 601 times)

Mtour

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Lister CE endplay adjustment
« on: July 31, 2021, 11:25:15 AM »
Hi all

 After reassembly of the 1950 Lister CE there is resistance to getting the flywheel moving, once the the wheels start to move it is smooth. It starts fine and runs well, when the engine is coming to a stop it seems to bind when the wheel are just about to stop moving.

 This engine seems to have been given a complete rebuild in the distant past and then left for at least 20 years. Ring gap is perfect, cylinders sleeves look new, no ware on lifter springs, main bearings look new. I replaced the rod bearings and checked the tolerance with plastic gauge.

So I not sure if it is normal for the engine to be stiff to get moving, or did I miss a step on reassembly. I did not see any way to adjust the endplay, I loosened both side covers and backed them off a mm and it did not make a difference.

 Any thoughts..

 Thanks..


mobile_bob

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2021, 02:24:49 AM »
fwiw
and i am sure you know all the following, but just in case

when you assemble the engine, (a bit late now) i made a practice of installing bit by bit
and turning the crankshaft between the addition of each bit, that way if something seemed to add
too much drag i knew the culprit.

i am not familiar with the CE, does it use plain main brgs or tapered roller?
if it is plain brgs, you might remove the rod cap and rotate the crank back and forth to see if it turns freely, if not, maybe the mains or thrust washers or a bit tight?

how long have you ran the engine since rebuild?

if you are concerned i would highly recommend doing some exploratory surgery to see if you can find something that is running a bit tight.  better to err on the side of caution sort of thing.

besides what would it hurt to open it up and have a look?

you could run it for a while and the remove the side cover and use a laser temp gun to investigate whether or not something is running hot, or noticeably warmer than you think it should be, might be a way of directing you to the issue... that is if there is an issue and it is just not a bit snug because it is new and not broken in?

i have seen a lot of engines that were tight as hell, that just needed to be run in, afterwhich they were just fine... but it is hard to say not being there as "tight" is a subjective term and can have vastly different meanings between as many different folks.

lastly, just for clarification

after it has been running and shut down
can you grab a flywheel and rotate the engine over a bit by hand? maybe with both hands?

or is it so tight that you have to pry it over with a pry bar or a length of wood or really lay into it?

and after it cools down is it harder to turn over or easier?

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Mtour

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 12:15:36 PM »
 thanks for the reply..
 
 It's prybar stiff cold or hot, no difference. Once it starts to move there is not much resistance. My plan is to take the head off and start from there, I guess just keep dissembling until there is a noticeable change in resistance.

Dave..

mobile_bob

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2021, 05:42:23 PM »
if you pull the head and before you dive in further

check the cylinder bore carefully for any signs of rubbing parallel with the crankshaft

if the rod is bent (not likely, but hey easy to check) there might well be some signs of rubbing a shiny swipe
on the liner or cylinder that is facing one of the other flywheel.

that would make it a bit tight, and if you see a swipe of shiny that looks like it has polished off the crosshatch or working on doing so, it might well be a sign of a bent connecting rod.  its not likely, but check it out, the rod may not be bent but the small end bushing might be cocked  and reamed out of line with the big end.

like i say, not likely, but certainly something to check out.

does you engine use plain main brgs?  i am unfamiliar with your engine, so i have to ask
also can you determine if there is some end play in the crankshaft, easy enough to check out by prying
"to and fro" with a pry just check to see if it has some, how much is unimportant at this point, just make sure there is a bit.

i am sure there are others that will chime in that have vastly more experience than i, maybe they can come up with other things to check while you are on this adventure.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Mtour

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 10:15:48 PM »

 I checked the end play and there is zero end play, my thinking now is that when I reinstalled the cam gear on the drive shaft it must have been driven on too tight. This would cause the the binding even with the end housings being backed off a mm. The cam gear had to be heated with map gas to get it off and to reinstall.

 This would have to be it, as the only other way to adjust the endplay would be to shim the non cam side end housing. There are no drive shaft shims on this engine just the collar of the main bearings.

 I reassembled the engine last November, had taken pictures of the whole process but unfortunately they were lost when my phone quite working. So going off memory of the reassembly process..

 Dave..

mike90045

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2021, 12:13:06 AM »
With recording tape, it's called "stiction".    In an engine, I'd look for oil that turned to grease.  Odd, because once you got it moving, should be able to set an hour and still be free.  Can you feel any play in the connecting rod ( upper or lower ) ?

something in the piston area seems to be the only large enough surface contact to "stick". 

Maybe Felts on the bearings ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction

Mtour

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2021, 01:18:27 AM »
 
 The engine has 30 minutes of run time since complete reassembly,  I am going to check to see if the crank is pinched between the cam gear, i can't remember if the crank had a seat to stop the cam gear from being driven on too far.

 Dave..


mobile_bob

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2021, 01:32:08 AM »
seems to me that the engine has to have some provision for thrust on the crankshaft, so that you could maintain end play to some spec called for

Mike makes a good point with checking the con rod for play, it should have some end play, where you can moved it back and forth on the crank journal, easy enough to check while you have the side cover off the engine.

anyone got a drawing of the innards of this engine model?

bob g
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(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Mtour

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2021, 10:27:05 AM »
 Thanks for all the replies..

 I had to wet sand the sides of the rod bearing quite a bit to get them to fit the the crank, wet sanded them on glass until they would just move freely. Checked the rod bearings with platsicgauge, also tried to spin the crank with the rod bearings loosened to see if the crank would spin easier.

 I have to try to get some endplay on the crankshaft, there is zero endplay on the engine now using a pry bar..
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 10:30:14 AM by Mtour »

mobile_bob

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2021, 06:52:19 PM »
if you have no end play on the crank when it is cold, when it gets warmed up the crank will lengthen and you will have even more binding.

you mention having to sand down the sides of the con rod brg?  to where it just fit?

i would continue to sand it down to where i had a couple thousands of clearance between the thrust sides of the brg and the cheek of the crankshaft.  not sure what the proper spec is, but .002" would be ok in my thinking.

do the main brgs have the same thrust sides on them? at least on one end of the crank, there would not be on both ends, just on end i would think... otherwise there must be some other provision for keeping the crankshaft both centered and have some end play.... that is if the engine has plain brgs and not tapered roller brgs?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mikenash

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2021, 08:52:20 AM »
is it stupid to say that if you use some thin paper gaskets to pack out one or both of the main bearings a thou or two from the case - that would be any easy way to introduce some end-float & learn what is needed?

Cheers

Mtour

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2021, 11:16:26 AM »

  The cylinders looked new so I don't expect it to be a bent rod. The two things I need two check then would be to make sure the rod bearings have .002" play and that the cam gear was not driven on to the point of binding, I will back the housing off again and recheck to see if there is any endplay.

 Thanks

Mtour

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2021, 11:20:41 AM »

 Started off by moving the cam gear out 1-2mm, you can see where the gear had previously sat in the picture, this made no difference. Then backed off the head bolts, this freed the  engine right away.

 I have a  manual for the engine and no where does it state the torque specs for the head bolts, found it funny how it states to change the oil every 2-3 months if the engine is run every day.

 Anyone know what the torque specs and procedure are for the CE..

Thanks..

Mtour

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Re: Lister CE endplay adjustment
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2021, 11:48:18 AM »
  I have torqued the head bolts to 100lbs on the 3/4 and 60lbs on the smaller, now there is a little stiffness when starting to spin the wheels.

 Anyone have any ideas why over torqueing the head bolts could bind the crank.. could it be the center main bearing carrier is being put out of alignment..

 Seem to remember the head bolts thread into inserts in the block, could one of these backed out..