Author Topic: I like the Kit idea...  (Read 7133 times)

oldnslow

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I like the Kit idea...
« on: August 18, 2006, 05:30:25 PM »
As many of you already know, you can get a shortblock from one supplier then order the head and other miscellaneous parts from another. These spare parts can then be assembled by you into a running engine. To me this will turn out to be a great advantage for us.

The main thing is that others in our hobby can get free access to engines again. This might not be a big deal because I still see some dealers have complete engines for sale despite the EPA rules. But with the kits, you can "build it as you like it" and not have to sign any forms.

For me, I wanted a 6/1 for a generator but it wouldn't put out enough KW for my needs. Not being able to afford two engines I bought a 10/1. Still wanted a 6/1 because it is slower and quieter and more like a real Lister. With the advent of kit engines, I might be able to buy a set of 6/1 flywheels and some parts for my governer and theoretically I would have a 6/1. So, now one engine becomes two types. Great for experimental purposes.

It may also be easier to get spares for those of us who have engines and want to make other modifications/improvements but still be able to go back to their original configuration if something goes awry.

Anyone on the board buying a kit? Your thoughts?
 

Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

slowspeed1953

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2006, 05:39:13 PM »

The main thing is that others in our hobby can get free access to engines again. This might not be a big deal because I still see some dealers have complete engines for sale despite the EPA rules.
 



Oldnslow, there are no "EPA rules" pertaining to listeroids!

Once again there are NO EPA RULES concernig our engines. I wont speculate as to why/how this COMPLETLY FALSE ::) rumor started but it has gone on WAY TOO LONG.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

bat outta hell

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2006, 06:38:48 PM »
Darren

Just for the record could you show the forum some form of document that states there are no rules pertaining to importation of these engines. Every thing that i've read is up in the air about it. old and slow i like the kits to never been run no contamation would be great been thinking about selling my 12/2 and buying one of the kits .6/1 is all i need.
 
regards
bat

Timbo

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2006, 07:12:55 PM »
Darren is correct.

There are no EPA rules regulating stationary recipricating internal combustion engines "RICE" that produce less than 500 hp. 

There are EPA rules regulating stationary RICE of greater than 500 hp

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/rice/fr15jn04.html

There are EPA rules regulating "nonroad" engines

http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/newsletters/civil/enfalert/engines.pdf

however, as defined by the EPA, stationary engines are not "nonroad" engines, and thus not subject to this regulation

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=a9488629fb2412b3f05dad2bc253dd63&rgn=div8&view=text&node=40:20.0.1.1.3.1.1.2&idno=40

Law, by it's nature, does not ever say what is not regulated, only what is regulated - an example is that you cannot find a definative statement from any governing body stating that it is permissable to eat ice cream on a Tuesday.  What laws state are what is not permissable - you cannot exceed the posted speed limit on a highway. 

While the idea of a kit engine is not a bad one for the reasons stated, there is no need to "avoid an EPA ban"

Timbo

BTW, the 6/1 I received is mounted to a 6x6 frame and runs put some tire tread on the bottom of the wood and no walking on my garage floor - no issues yet - mounting a belt tensioner this weekend - hope to make my own electricity soon!


bat outta hell

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2006, 07:41:08 PM »
guys
I'm getting a different interpitation of these laws than you all are. I'm a lumber inspector by vocation, my instructor told one day that they were different ways of interpation but that he was the the final judge. That the way the EPAwill be ,and at 35.000$ a day i'd hate to be wrong.

bat

aqmxv

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2006, 08:07:30 PM »
I hate to admit it, but...I used to work at the EPA.  In the "Mobile Sources" lab, to be exact.

Here's a useful thing to remember:  EPA does not have an easily defined mission.  An example of a well-defined mission would DOD--If we're successfully invaded by a foreign army, then the DOD failed to to its job.

Since EPA doesn't have a well-defined mission, and since it's not really critical to anything that has to happen in a government (like taxing, defending, accounting, etc.) it is constantly trying to justify its continued existence.  NASA is, unfortunately, in the same boat.

If you then add into the mix that EPA hasn't hired the best and brightest over the last 20 years or so because a) the pay was inferior to academia, and b) the research was never bleeding-edge or unique, you might begin to understand why EPA-authored documents (including regs) have a jargon-intensive opacity that is their trademark.

Basically, you've got a bunch of second-rate punters trying to look really smart and up-to-the-minute so that they'll get their funding next year.  They make up counterintuitive terms with legal force (like nonroad diesel).  They make up arbitrary and opaque acronyms like RICE.  They selectively choose research results to bolster a politically determined argument (ethanol in gasoline for emissions reduction).

Your tax dollars at "work."  "Work" here is defined as that two-hour space between morining coffee break and lunch, and the two hour space between lunch (which lasts two hours) and sneak-out-of-the-office time.  And no, I'm not exaggerating.  I do have stories...



6/1 Metro IDI for home trigen

Rtqii

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2006, 08:16:35 PM »
Darren is correct.

I concur. Scott read the EPA rules update, so have I... There is no ban on small stationary diesels.

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/oarpg/t3/fr_notices/stadieselengineprop.pdf

Quote
2. Non-Emergency Stationary CI ICE <10
Liters per Cylinder
The EPA expects there will be few, if
any, stationary CI ICE less than 50
horsepower (HP). Nevertheless, EPA has
established emission standards for these
engines for the potential few engines
less than 50 HP that may be stationary
CI ICE.
For non-emergency engines less than
25 HP, the technologies that are the
basis of the proposed standards are
expected to be the same as the
technologies that are the basis for the
nonroad diesel engine standards in this
size range. The basis of the proposed
PM standards for these engines is a
variety of engine-based technologies
including combustion optimization and
different fuel injection strategies. The
EPA expects that manufacturers of
smaller engines may also utilize
oxidation catalyst control for PM in
order to meet the Tier 4 standard for
nonroad diesel engines. The EPA
expects that manufacturers of stationary
CI ICE less than 25 HP will employ
engine-based technologies, to meet the
proposed NOX for engines less than 25
HP include advanced in-cylinder
technologies and electronic fuel
systems.

Tier 4 is not expected until 2011...

Quote
However, there are certain engine
classes and families produced that are
not sold into the nonroad sector but are
strictly used for stationary purposes.
These engines would not be certified
under the nonroad rule for CI engines.
However, even for engines not currently
certified to nonroad standards, these
engines are very similar in design and
in the method of manufacture to
comparable nonroad land-based, or in
the case of engines with displacement
above 10 liters per cylinder, marinebased
engines. This is why EPA is
proposing that stationary engines be
certified under the NSPS, following the
certification protocols specified in the
nonroad rules for diesel land-based
engines, or marine-based engines.

They are proposing changes... But rules covering Lister type engines have not been placed into effect. At most engine dealers need to flag/tag their engines as "stationary" (not "nonroad" but true stationary).

Now... You can panic, scream, jump up and down and say "but he said, she said" - Read the EPA rules. There is nothing in the rules "banning" Lister type stationary engines 25HP and below in 2007.


bat outta hell

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2006, 09:20:33 PM »
Rtqii
What about the emmision standards that they have to meet in 2007 then get tougher in 2008 wouldnot the engines being imported have to meet these rules. That with the mind set of the EPA  that would probaly  get a man hung. Just glad i bought my 2 last year.
bat

oldnslow

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2006, 10:19:03 PM »
I agree there is no ban on the engines just shift in liablilty.  Kind of like holding Smith and Wesson liable for a crime committed with a model 19. I don't want to spend alot of time reading EPA documents because I have an engine already but I did talk to both Joel and George at Utterpower.  I believe what they told me and can see no reason why they would make this up but believe what you want.

Anyway, let's not get bogged down in EPA issues. My point is I think kits are taking us in a direction that is ultimately good.  I think dealers will be able to improve their quality faster because they can asses a manufacturers quality while spending less capital. Like buying heads instead of engines, you could get a fairly good assesment and a decent idea of brand-X quality buying 100 heads vs 100 engines. I read somewhere in another thread that the pricing on replacement parts was pretty reasonable so this could be true. Eventually we may see different grades of parts at different prices. I encounter this all the time, like at NAPA when I needed an alternator they told me their brand was $89 and a Delco was $189 for example.

That doesn't mean you can't do your homework as an importer and no one has yet been able to say they have the absolute best India can offer but it opens up ways to sample a larger groups of sources faster. The dealers can opt for multiple sources and have more freedom to improve the quality of the finished engine. If the engines get better, Listeroids will remain a viable option and the USA/Canadian markets will continue to grow.

It boils down to profit. Eventually the better manufacturers in India may see enough profit to jump in and take the market away from the substandard brands. Perhaps if one of the better manufacturers of engine components sees the potential for a large numbers of universal parts groups, direct to the USA for cash, they may come out and compete where they didn't before. On the other hand, if a manufacturer like JKson or Ashwamegh saw that it could gain more business if it guarranteed a certain kind of crankshaft or flywheel set they might do it to sell more engines. Just like JKson puts bronze cam gears in the PS branded engines for Utterpower. IMHO kits will speed up the process of improving the quality of Listeroids for all of us. Just a thought.

It would be great to hear from anyone else that buys a kit.
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

bat outta hell

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2006, 11:22:28 PM »
oldnslow
 After reading some of the epa rules . i agree  to import one for your self would probally be alright,but to sell i dont think i would either. I think the kit is a very good idea and would also like to hear more about them.


bat

binnie

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006, 12:15:23 AM »
I know this is all in the planning (experimental) stage, but I am wondering what the end cost of an unassembled, or semi assembled kit would be, compared with an engine already assembled in India. 
I imagine that multiple shipping charges would be higher...but the end cost might be less than what we are paying now, and we would have the advantage of inspecting the parts as we put them together ourselves... We may just end up bonding with a much better engine that we feel very confortable with & know intimately. That has some great advantages. I like the idea. (most of us are taking them apart & putting them back together anyway before 1st running). binnie
 
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

oldnslow

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2006, 02:51:49 AM »
I think there are a couple of different ideas on this board as to what would be a great Lister copy. To me, the closest thing to a real Lister is the best.

Others might want something else and that's great too. It would be cool to be able to spec an engine that has a block with the "troughs" and sump area like an original or a chrome cylinder with a cast iron 4 ring piston, and a head with the changeover valve etc...

Too early to tell what will happen with kits. Quinn's evaluation of the first Utterpower kit looked pretty good. It's only the first; others may follow. Haven't seen pricing yet but if I didn't have an engine I would go with the kit. Choices can be a good thing.
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

mobile_bob

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2006, 02:54:39 AM »
EPA rules:

yes i have read them,  and have studied law enough to know that if you are not very careful you can get bit!

suttle differences in words such as "should" and "shall" can twist a meaning from day to night , and even from day to apple!

one also has to consider the political nature of things, such as if some group takes a dislikeing to you, they can use even a loosely worded clause to beat the crap out of you.

then consider:  if you are in your late 50's or 60's and have worked your whole life to pay off your house, and try to
set yourself up for retirement,,, you risk alot.

i know first hand how laws are written,, and also how a judge has wide discretion to interpret those same laws.
He can, and often does use what is called "the intent of the law" to make it read what he wants or the opposing atty wants it to say.

i don't know if there are any atty's in this group, but i would bet a pretty good dollar that none of use will find an atty that will sign off on the importation of these engines at this time. The law is just to loose, to vague, and filled with problematic language, and it is subject to changes at any time.  Literally an importer takes a risk that new regs don't come out tomorrow to cause him renewed risk the day before he takes delivery of a shipment.

also it is readily apparent that laws and regs can be inacted to be retroactive!  this means that it is conceivable that they might choose to right new regs tomorrow and place a start date retroactive april 1, 2006.  Who has the money to lobby and stop this sort of retroactive approach. I don't!  do you?

parts are a different animal entirely, they don't have to be date stamped at present so even if they changed the regs to include them it would be very difficult to retroactively go after them. to my knowledge the importers do not have to maintain documents on parts, so this looks to be the most effective way of doing business without a high level of risk.

now as far as kit engines, i think this will prove to be a godsend, for all the reasons previously mentioned, and
upon receiving a kit once cannot simply add oil and start it.  you have a kit and take responcibility of checking it over at least some upone assembly.

my bet is more of the engines as kits will be completely disassembled, cleaned, detailed, blueprinted than there every was when they came complete.

nobody is kidding me with this one,,, i know human nature, you got this beautiful hunk of engine out of the crate and all you want to do is fire it up asap to hear it run... everybody feels it,,, but few have the self restraint to tell themselves to wait, and do it right.

i do wonder how many problem engines come from this sort of action,,, uncrate, start and destroy.

the reason i say this is:

my partner bought a 2 cyl petter gen set... he got in uncrated, added oil to the full mark, water and fired it up, because he was so excited... only to find out later that the full mark on the dipstick was not even close to covering the pickup tube to the pump!  he didnt take time to check squat,, i am sure even sand was the last thing on his mind, even after he was told numerous times to take a good look at things first. what makes matters worse is he is a truck mechanic and knows better!

so yes on numerous counts the kit engines are just what we need, just when we need it most.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info


hotater

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Re: I like the Kit idea...
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2006, 04:17:39 AM »
I have a short block in the shop now.  (it's HEAVY too!)  I'll be posting what I find as I did the Phase I FuKing...which is running now with two bottom crankpin shells and a hollow dipper but still wants to rattle some, at 6,087 hours.

The  KIT is the logical way to have one of these engines for the long haul, I believe.  There IS a downside to having an engine that hasn't been run. Cams can be out of time or parts missing or something totally misassembled and still pass 'inspection'.  So they ARE A KIT and it takes some knowledge to put it together right.

 I gained a LOT of knowledge on the first Listeroid,  Phase II will be like Grandaddy's old axe....it's had two new heads and four handles, but it's still Grandaddy's old axe.   ;D

I poured the foundation today.  New thread coming.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.