Cooling system update

[dkwflight]

Hi I've been running at a steady 17.5 amp load for four hours. The water temp is just under the bioiling point. I get a whisp of steam occasionaly. The oil(crankcase door) is at 170 with my infared thermo. The outside air temp is around 95.
I may have to insulate the pipes for winter operation.
The coil under the crank seems to be doing what I want, so far.

http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/dkwflight/?action=view&current=100_0162.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch2
The bottom tube down from the freon tank is 1 1/2". The pump pulls from the bottom tube. The discharge from the pump goes to this tube assembly.

http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/dkwflight/?action=view&current=100_0160.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1
This tube assy is installed under the engine to transfer heat to the sump. The oil temps are up 4-5deg after 1.5-2 hrs run. I may have to make some mods to heat the oil further. I won't know untill I have an 8-10 hr run.
The discharge from the tubing array goes to the manifold on the engine. The hoses from the heads go to the sides of the freon tank. the water level in the tank is near the top. the upper 1 1/2" tube will go to a radiater to condense the steam. If all this works the way I want I will add a sight glass to a heavier tank for permanent use. These disposable tanks are vrey thin.
I tried a straight tube without the tank and the result was steam and water being pushed out the top. I tried it with out the pump and there was a lot of steam and not too much water circulation. This lack of circulation was a concern to me.
The pump is a weak point for me. If the pump stops?
This is a work in progress.
Dennis

[hotater]

Ok DW,  what is the goal here?  To complicate the simplest system in the world?   

If the goal is to raise the heat of the sump oil, I think you'd be better off with an oil pump running oil through the transmission cooler lines in a radiator and using the radiator to cool the engine.

"Lack of circulation" is the key phrase here.

  With a thermosyphon system the water ONLY goes where it needs to to cool down and DOESN'T go there until it needs to.  A  6-1 Listeroid running 1800 watts for MANY hours uses SIX gallons of water an hour.  That's all.  If you push more than that through it, the engine is running too cold.  Period.

[dkwflight]

Hi My idea is to operate at the boiling point. eventually I will use the steam to warm my domesic hot water.
I want the engine to run as hot as possible for clean combustion. Getting the oil hot enough too boil off condensation and other combustion by products.
Having tried the thermosyphon system already both with and without thermostsats, I found it unsatisfactory. When the engine was loaded up I got too much steam and not enough water in the upper hoses. So I added the pump. With the pump I could push water through the tube array under the sump. The array raised the oil temps from around 120 to the 170 I saw yesterday. I may add a heat exchanger to raise the oil temps more.I believe the higher temps are important with modern oils.
And yes it is more complicated than I like.
The exhaust is cleaner now than a few hours running time ago. I think this is because of the rings breaking in as well as the higher operating temps.
Thanks
Dennis

[Halfnuts]

Hot water is one thing.  Steam is something else. 

It takes 1 calorie of heat to heat 1 gram of water one degree C.  Once you decide you're into making steam, that you will need 540 calories of heat to make 1 gram of steam.  Hot water makes more sense than steam unless you have a VERY LARGE source of energy, like a very large engine with oodles of waste heat.

Halfnuts

[hotater]

Dennis--

Lets go through them one by one--
"my idea is to operate at the boiling point".

I've done that.  I've found it better to be five degrees under boiling when the water exits.  THAT puts the areas around the COV and exhaust valve at about ten over boiling.

"too much steam and not enough water in the top pipe..."

That means it's boiling!

In a thermosiphon system the top pipe is full of water all the time, so is the bottom.  Any steam will flash off  the surface of the tank *above* the hot water inlet, so the only way you get steam is if the whole tank is near the boiling point...that would be about a six gallon tank and an hour under 2/3 load.  That's what it takes to boil the cooling tank.
 A ten gallon tank will start to boil in hot weather after two hours.
I can't make a twenty gallon tank get above 185 F.

Try this----

Mount a twenty gallon tank so that the top hose has ten inches of rise in it.  It should be 1 1/4" pipe or hose.  The bottom can be anywhere as long as it's at or very near the bottom of the tank and the hose runs to the bottom 'inlet' of the cylinder.  Think of it as an  "0" with the engine on one side and the tank on the other.  Make hose runs short and straight with no sags or upward bends that can trap air.   Vent the tank to an overflow with the tube under water, just like a car, but take the spring out of the cap so it's no pressure..  
  Set up like this the engine head temperature will hit 195 degrees and stay there after 40 minutes of 2/3 load.   With a 195 thermostat it only takes 20 minutes to hit operating temps and stabilize there.

My engine didn't smoke or run 'cold acting' without a thermostat so I opted to go without.  It's simpler that way.  The next will be anti-freezed and fancy and will have a thermostat.

I just looked at my first 'dropped sump' CS engine.  THAT's where the moisture goes in a cold running engine.

[dkwflight]

Hi I guess I was not very clear.
I am running a 28/2. when it is carrying a 17 amp load the system as I have it set up barely gets to the boiling point. After a little over 5 hours running at that load!  My House load in the summer is in that area.
During the winter that elec load goes up to around 45.amps when the electric heat goes on. I am planning to use the blower and a heat strip to warm the area under my floor. This will increase my comfort level and lessen the time when the main heat has to run.

If everybody did everything the same way? oh yeh BORING!

This is a work in progress.
Thanks
Dennis

[dkwflight]

Hi Here is a link to a page that gives the recommended tank sizes for various lister engines.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/cooltech.htm
Now a JP3 engine is similar in rating to my 28/2= 540 galons of tankage requried for a tropical clime. HMM!

Dennis

[hotater]

well slap my mind! 

I can't seem to keep up with who's who and what they're running/not running/hoping to run/might run one day.   

Interesting to me that Lister says use a vertical tank in all instances...no laying down or tilts.  Makes sense.

[dkwflight]

Hi
I know I told the story of an old german engineer-mechanic who lived in Soccoro, NM
He put together powerplants for remote ranches in the us, mexico, and south america.
The engines were Wittes and Blackstones. He used vertical tanks like this. He told me for cool weather they would wrap fiberglass insulation around the bottom of the tanks. All of his plants were set up for 24/7 operation. The huge tanks stabilised the temps and helped with the life of the engines.
He said the Blackstones needed a monthly service, oil change.
After ten years of this operation they did a top overhaul. after another ten thay would do a complete tear down.
He was very old in 1976-7 when I talked with him. I don't remeber his name
Thanks
Dennis

[hotater]

There's a guy in Twin Falls that told me of the NM Witte mechanic.  They worked together near Ely Nv on some microwave stuff.  I'll get his name for you next time I see this guy...I can't remember HIS name!