Thermostat and heat storage questions

[pigseye]

Could a few of you post pics of your thermostat installation?  I'd like to get a few ideas for my set up.

I also would like to get your insight on heat storage. 

Specifically, do you cool the listeroid with a thermosiphon tank system and then transfer that heat via copper coils to your thermal storage tank?

Or could you just connect the listeroid directly to your thermal storage tank and heat the water directly?

Any ideas or suggestions on heat storage would be appreciated.

[mobile_bob]

"Specifically, do you cool the listeroid with a thermosiphon tank system and then transfer that heat via copper coils to your thermal storage tank? "


this would be my preferred method

with this method, you can run antifreeze or dca treated coolant in the engine, to keep down corrosion and rust, and provide freeze protection.

thats the way i would do it.

bob g

[Doug]

I've been doing some reading on the subject. There are several schools of thought...

Use a propylene in the whole system because its less toxic, but more expensive.

Gycol, but there are disposal issues...

Isolated loop systems ( like Bob says ) and use the anti freeze where the system is real danger of freazing

Stroner or weaker concentrations, some sugest you only need as much anti freeze as is necisary to slush and prevent bursting. Others disagree....

The we get into the whole question of corrosion and the need to add chemicals to hold the PH in line so dissimilar metals don't age to a fast.


These are just some of the issues and I haven't provided any solutions.

Here's a link to a heat page ( If forget where I got this but I just found out about it recently )

http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/235.pdf

Doug

[aqmxv]

I'm wondering just what to do about getting the heat out of the exhaust - ideally into the water tank.  Knowing the exhaust is hot and corrosive (if it's petrodiesel), I'm guessing that stainless steel is required...

[Doug]

I'm nit sure thats much of a problem...

If you use a tube exchanger with the counter flow principal ( hot water up hot exhaust down ) you should be able to run off any condensate fairly easy just let it drain out the bottom. I'd heat wrap the extrerior to try and keep the shell as warm as possible and a simple coating like LPS Zinc sprayed inside would liekly keep things intact for years and years.

No the real danger point is the coolant heat transfer loop you can't see whats going on in there. You need to add chemicals watch your PH and be prepared to replace things so design a system that can be serviced ( EG not burried in a concrete floor unless its plastic )

Oh ya I'd build rather than buy. I'd use 1/2 EMT for the tubes and the lagest mild steel pipe as practical.

Doug

Doug

[aqmxv]

Oh ya I'd build rather than buy. I'd use 1/2 EMT for the tubes and the lagest mild steel pipe as practical.

So you're thinking water tube boiler here, instead of fire tube boiler?  I was sort of going the other way. 

Is there any reason I couldn't just run an exhaust coil through the cooling tank?  By your reasoning, as long as the general trend for the exhaust was down, any condensate would end up underneath.  I hope to get gas temperatures low enough to plumb that part with CPVC as is done for pulse-combustion furnaces.

[dkwflight]

Hi I had the blocks opened up to hold these thermostats.

http://s29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/dkwflight/?action=view&current=000_0006.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch5

They are slow opening. They need a bleed hole, maybe 1/16" to alow the warm water from the engine to operate the stat.

Dennis

[pigseye]

Could someone please post a few pics and describe the use and installation of a thermostat?

Thanks

[hotater]

I've done some experimentation on heating and cooling the engine.  I don't capture the heat at all.  I have a BUNCH of hot water.   

It takes a rise of about four inches between the exit point of the head and the thermosiphon tank inlet to hold 195 degrees in the head.  In other words, it takes the same amount of time for the water to begin to circulate with a four inch rise as it does for a 195 deg thermostat to open.  I ran a small block Chevy 195 thermostat for a year but it was a crud catcher and just another complication in an uncomplicated engine.

 BUT!!!

I'm in th e process of building another system using a five fin steam radiator and anti-freeze.   I've built a mount that gives me four inches of rise, but it's a much longer run of pipe.  It might need a thermostat, but I doubt it.

[JohnF13]

Capturing exhaust heat is easy, but you have to remember that the more you cool the exhaust gases, the more you are going to have to clean out your exhaust system.  If I get a chance I will post some pics, but meanwhile think of this - a 3" plain mild steel pipe (in my case I used square) running from the engine to the outside, with a slight drop on it to allow condensate to run out.  On the end of the pipe nearest the engine, a 4" (that's the size I had!) pipe is welded over the smaller one, making a water jacket. My larger pipe is about 8' long.  Run your water from bottom to top, presto, hot water from the exhaust. Wrape the heat exchanger part in insulation and the water wil lget plenty hot.  Good thing about this system is that it is easy to clean out, you just need a square chimney brush.

[Geno]

pigseye: I used a method similar to dkwflight, but more crude. The t-stat used is the one Utterpower reccomends (part # ) with a bleed hole.

hotater: The rad in this pic is 21x18x8 and is a bit to small to cool the engine with a 2800 watt load and air temp 80° without a fan on it. I'm using plain water for now but that shouldn't matter. The thermosiphon works VERY well just tilting it a bit as shown. I'm amazed how much heat it sheds. I don't know how I'm going to make it cost effective but I really want that heat in the house. Be careful you don't undersize the rad, thats all. Also, if your rad is a steam one how do you plan on converting it so thermosiphon will work properly.

My engine room is only a few hours work away from finally being done.

Thanks, Geno

[GuyFawkes]

that radiator is plumbed wrong, in at the bottom, out at the top, if you look at the pic you can see the blanks on the end at the top, you need to swap one of them for the pipe fitting at the bottom.

[Geno]

I broke my 1/2" breaker bar on one of the top fittings and my air impact wrench wouldn't budge either one, 2 days of Kroil too. Thats why its tilted and plumbed this way. (hot on the left) I can feel it heat up slowly from left to right and top to bottom and believe its shedding as much heat as possible. As the hot water enters shouldn't it just rise and displace the cooler water? Thats what my hand tells me when I feel it.

Thanks, Geno

[GuyFawkes]

Steam radiators usually have hot in on top one side, cold out bottom the other (for condensate)

Water radiators usually have hot in bottom one side, cooler out top other side, thermosyphon works with the pump.***

In and out at the bottom is done because it makes the pipework "tidy", it is always the least efficient of all systems.

Yes, there will be some thermal circulation within the radiator, and at lower rates of heat input to the radiator it doesn't make a lot of odds, but as you start the ramp up the rates of heat input it gets more and more inefficient.

The solution to your problem is a simple one, turn the radiator 90 degrees, thermosyphon is a non constant flow pump, so this will work, if you have a forced flow coolant pump you're better off leaving it as is.

If you want to remove fittings such as these without destroying the radiator.

1/ grind off the stub flat and square with the rest of the plug.
2/ ACCURATELY centre punch and pilot drill the centre
3/ hole saw the absolute largest diameter you can and stay just inside the threads
4/ dremel cutting wheel make one slot in the remaining ring and pry out, small sharp chisels will do this.
5/ put new fitting in with red lead and oakum as thread sealant.


*** This is based on the assumption that the radiator does not dump more heat than the flow of hot water can supply.

[dkwflight]

Hi I am surprised that Guy can still buy red lead! Modern pipe dopes are a better alternative.
Many old time plumbers use a hammer on stuck fittings. The viberation created by hitting the fitting repeatedly will do the job.
Judicious heat on the plug also will help loosen it. It may take repeated applications. If you bring a section of the plug up to red heat and let it cool completely the iron in the plug will gradually deform to a smaller diameter. This method will bend or straighten large I beams.
Dennis