Author Topic: 1940 CS 5/1  (Read 992 times)

1956ld1

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1940 CS 5/1
« on: February 18, 2021, 01:57:39 PM »
Hi all,
As the title suggests I have acquired a rather large ( to me ) Cs engine. Bought in pieces with most of the engine in red primer but the mechanicals all need overhauling. No pictures as yet but ill get some later. The crank is in poor condition so I'm in the process of battling the gib keys to remove the flywheels and subsequently removing the crank. I've got most of the parts to put this engine together bar the odd bolt and the injector bracket. The spec plate reads "CS37976" ( the second last digit was an 8 but has a 7 stamped over it) and it is a spec "5/1/35", any history would be appreciated. The engine has evidence of being seized due to water ingress hence the crank is a little worse for wear. The injector pump and injector I got working as it was seized solid but I must have put the rack in the wrong way as it's failing to stop when the rack is in the closed position. I also am having a mini-battle with the oil pump oil seal, said seal is an original metal and leather that is very seized into place, any ideas?
I'll try to keep this thread updated.
Josh.

dieselgman

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2021, 03:54:34 PM »
We also have battled similar issues with original British engines left in the field to rust away. There are plenty of threads here regarding various issues - getting rusted flywheels loose. Patience,  judiciously applied heat and lubrication, a bit of special tooling (even handmade custom), all are a part. The original castings are rarely a problem except for the cylinder blocks that will often freeze and crack.

If I remember correctly, your 5/1 may have a smaller rod journal than the current 6/1 and 8/1 replacement parts have. Luckily the main bearings are the same throughout. Your original rod journal can be machined... and cranks will interchange if you also change out connecting rod and associated components.

replacement seals are available for re-sealing the oil pump lifter shaft.

Nice project! Good luck!   dieselgman
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 07:56:55 PM by dieselgman »
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1956ld1

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2021, 06:49:17 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement  :)
Got the crank out but still haven't removed one of the flywheels. Might have to drill the key out as the head on the key is long gone and welding a new one didn't help either.
The two main surfaces of the crank arnt badly worn but have some pitting, don't think it's worth sleeving them tho. The big end will get reground as the pitting on it is beyond DIY polishing.

dieselgman

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2021, 07:25:07 PM »
Some have successfully drilled out broken keys. I have not seen a flywheel pulled after crankshaft removed from block... that may present some challenges even after gib key removal. It may require a substantial work table to get ahold of the crank or flywheel or both. It may be practical to put the crank back into the block and anchor it that way.

If drilling out gib remnants, it should be practical to simply drill it through the center without touching either the flywheel or crankshaft and then collapse the remainder of the key with punches. Very sharp bits, very careful placement of your holes, patience and precision.

Good luck! dieselgman
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 07:30:26 PM by dieselgman »
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sirpedrosa

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2021, 07:42:52 PM »
Hi Josh

Take a look at my way to pull the gibkey from my Petter here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8333.msg100331#msg100331

Stay safe
VP
By order of firing up:
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
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38ac

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2021, 12:47:52 AM »
To the best of my knowledge only the very early engines had a smaller diameter crank pin, actually the very first engines had 1 7/8 mains and two piece main bearing housings borrowed from the parent engine, the model L gas, oops petrol😉 engine. All were recalled best I have read. Past the early versions, which you do not have. A 5/1 only differs from a 6/1 in the operating RPM and HP rating the crank, bearings and rod are same part number. Good luck with your gib keys, my current shop project took me about 20 hours to remove one key and flywheel die to a botched attempt to cut the key out with a torch. If the decide to drill the key as Gary suggested it is best to make a drill guide which is a short piece of the proper sized key with a hole drilled thought it exactly on center and square.
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dieselgman

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2021, 06:47:00 AM »
To the best of my knowledge only the very early engines had a smaller diameter crank pin, actually the very first engines had 1 7/8 mains and two piece main bearing housings borrowed from the parent engine, the model L gas, oops petrol engine. All were recalled best I have read. Past the early versions, which you do not have. A 5/1 only differs from a 6/1 in the operating RPM and HP rating the crank, bearings and rod are same part number. Good luck with your gib keys, my current shop project took me about 20 hours to remove one key and flywheel die to a botched attempt to cut the key out with a torch. If the decide to drill the key as Gary suggested it is best to make a drill guide which is a short piece of the proper sized key with a hole drilled thought it exactly on center and square.

Thanks for that input... I have been inside a few of the early 3/1 and 5/1 engines. Here is what I found... 2" main bearings and the smaller rod journals in my specimens. It was very easy to assume that the 3/1 and 5/1 were direct predecessors of the 6/1 and 8/1 and they differ mainly in bore size (which they certainly do). Taking a look at the part numbers I can see that 3/1 and 5/1 use the same crankshaft part number. Operating speeds - same as later engines.? There are certainly a lot of variants and subtle changes to be seen in the early engines and replacement parts may have been swapped in over the years as well. It does not help that minimal published data remains for the early versions of these... they also reference a 3 1/2 - 1 in some of the documentation, variants all I would bet. I did find margin notes saying the 3 1/2 and 3/1 vary only in rated speeds... 5/1 and 6/1 however have different bore sizes? Plenty of room for confusion. Check your individual engine it may vary from the published specs.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 07:02:12 AM by dieselgman »
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38ac

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2021, 01:12:24 PM »
Gary, I certainly cannot argue against your knowledge and experience. Many of these engines have been put together from a hodgepodge of parts over the years most of which are pretty easy to tell that was done. Its also obvious in some cases that an engine is still as it was originally produced. Casting aside the obvious put together engines and speaking only about engines that I am reasonably sure are as produced my experience differs greatly from yours which I find very interesting and curious as to why that is? I am in total agreememt that factory literature is conflicting at times. By comparison to you I have a small stash of period document's and literature. I did have 3 5/1 engines through the shop this year, that did not appear to be put together from parts and I have two very early 10/2 sitting here for rebuilds at this time. Every 5/1 engine I have been through was identical to a 6/1 save a 600 RPM rating verses 650 for the 6/1. Factory documents I have state 5/1 and 6/1 share common parts and that internally all 6/1 engines were referred to as 5/1 for simplicity of parts and ID.  My literature also states the 3/1 and 3.5/1 were same engines rated at 600 or 650 RPM respectively. Also that 3/1 through 6/1 all shared the same crankshafts and updates to the  rod journal at engine numberthe rod journal size at the same time. They differed mainly via smaller bore at 3 3/4". The 3/1 5/1 6/1 crankcase as it was in later years appeared at engine number 5864 which included the upgrade to  2" mains and 2 1/4 rod journal and one piece main bearing housings.  At engine number 10863 all engines received the upgrade to 2 1/2" rod journal that stayed untll end of production. In my pocession is 10/2 number 11769, 1934 3rd year of production,  which I would bet has never been touched in any way. I opened it up far enough to confirm bore and rod journal and it is 4 1/2 bore, 2 1/2 rod as my literature states it should be. I also have 10/2 number 21xxz which would be 1936 production in same condition and it also checks out the same.  Common to all 5HP per cylinder engines I have seen is a 600 rpm rating, common to all 6HP per cylinder engines is a 650 rpm rating.
Again I am not into who is right here I do find it very interesting that our experiences differ so on this subject.
Butch
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dieselgman

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 04:23:24 PM »
Some of my information is from the early "Black Data Book" Published for dealers by Lister/Petter Ltd... a few of the details do vary from other documentation I have seen. What I have taken away from experience is that any assumptions about exact specs should be confirmed by hands-on the actual machinery... likely true of any antique we might get our hands on.

Gary
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38ac

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Re: 1940 CS 5/1
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 04:56:20 PM »
. What I have taken away from experience is that any assumptions about exact specs should be confirmed by hands-on the actual machinery... likely true of any antique we might get our hands on.

Gary

That we are certainly in agreement on! 😄
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