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Author Topic: Listeroid intake porting  (Read 803 times)

gadget

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2020, 12:25:04 AM »
@ Gadget
"Your test reminds me of the magic rag trick."
I don't know what the magic rag trick is, but.......
A few years ago, I was running this same engine under load, for some reason, without the intake silencer.
For some other reason, now  unrecalled, I had a rag in my hand. It disappeared. The engine slowed for a beat or two, then continued on as if nothing happened.
Sucked in and through, never found any of it. Was that a magic rag trick???? It was quite funny in any event!
Cheers
Hugh

LOL, no thats not the trick but pretty funny no less....

The magic rag trick works like this;

You have a clogged carb. Get the engine running and rev it up as high as you safely can(usually on starting fluid) While holding the throttle, cover the opening with a rag till it just about dies and keep repeating if needed. The super high vacuum created can sometimes unclog blocked fuel passages in the carb.

It works on small engines too....sometimes. Its saved me a carb removal many times over the years. People love it when you go over the help them with there mower thats sat all winter with fuel in the carb and you fix it with a rag.....

hwew

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2020, 01:47:05 AM »
  :) Done that trick on my Honda Lawn mower engine for 3 or 4 years right after it was taken out of storage to start mowing. Just last year I finally had to replace the carb.

It works.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 01:50:22 AM by hwew »

38ac

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2020, 12:26:08 PM »
Being an old hot rodder myself I certainly understand the thought patterns behind home brew gains from port modifications. Years ago there were some threads on here with all kinds of hypotheticals based upon spark ignition  racing engine theories that no more apply to a 600 rpm Listeroid than a 34a bra applies to Dolly Pardon. Cleaning up debris left by India doesn't need to be rehashed,, I don't think?  My gut on the port work deal is it would take a very a sophisticated set up with lots of instruments to prove any gain and and it would be trivial at best. As suggested those gains would also only be at the higher HP rating.
  As for a home brewed  porting test that would tell a much better story than smoke or eye ball inclinations a person could devise a means operate and hold the rack with the governor unhooked. Then apply a load and move the rack to give the desired RPM at that load. Then with an accurate tachometer, (or Hz reading if using a generator) start closing off the intake as Hugh originally posted. If said test does not lower the RPM until a significant portion of the intake is covered then port work will be a total waste of effort AT THAT RPM AND LOAD.   
Another area the book educated diesel hot rodders get lost upon is the fact that a diesel engine port is only handling air and it is drawing the same amount of air irregardless of load. The exhaust flow varies with load but the exhaust is seldom talked about.  Discouraging a person from experimenting is not my goal but a few basics need to be included if theory is going to be discussed.
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gadget

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2020, 04:50:26 PM »
Being an old hot rodder myself I certainly understand the thought patterns behind home brew gains from port modifications. Years ago there were some threads on here with all kinds of hypotheticals based upon spark ignition  racing engine theories that no more apply to a 600 rpm Listeroid than a 34a bra applies to Dolly Pardon. Cleaning up debris left by India doesn't need to be rehashed,, I don't think?  My gut on the port work deal is it would take a very a sophisticated set up with lots of instruments to prove any gain and and it would be trivial at best. As suggested those gains would also only be at the higher HP rating.
  As for a home brewed  porting test that would tell a much better story than smoke or eye ball inclinations a person could devise a means operate and hold the rack with the governor unhooked. Then apply a load and move the rack to give the desired RPM at that load. Then with an accurate tachometer, (or Hz reading if using a generator) start closing off the intake as Hugh originally posted. If said test does not lower the RPM until a significant portion of the intake is covered then port work will be a total waste of effort AT THAT RPM AND LOAD.   
Another area the book educated diesel hot rodders get lost upon is the fact that a diesel engine port is only handling air and it is drawing the same amount of air irregardless of load. The exhaust flow varies with load but the exhaust is seldom talked about.  Discouraging a person from experimenting is not my goal but a few basics need to be included if theory is going to be discussed.

Well said 38ac, your bra analogy really paints a nice picture. I'm just hoping to get 4500 watts at the gen head with my 8/1 living at 4650 ft above sea level. If the wife can't run her oven off the lister i'm in big trouble.....

hwew

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2020, 06:41:09 PM »
It might be tough to pull a continuous load without increasing displacement. Need to de-rate the engine about 14%. From calculations it comes out to roughly 6.88 hp.

Or try turbocharging.

And the cheapest option might be to get her a gas stove/oven. I think gas cooks better. :)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 06:58:25 PM by hwew »

gadget

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2020, 12:39:08 AM »
It might be tough to pull a continuous load without increasing displacement. Need to de-rate the engine about 14%. From calculations it comes out to roughly 6.88 hp.

Or try turbocharging.

And the cheapest option might be to get her a gas stove/oven. I think gas cooks better. :)

I may actually pick up a 16/2 down the road and use the 8/1 with the axial charger.

hwew

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2020, 01:18:26 AM »
An axial charger would be a nice project.

dkmc

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2020, 04:54:47 PM »

What needs to happen, is we need to make Gale Banks aware of these engines. When he gets up off the floor from laughing, he might get interested out of sympathy and then you'll see him with a 50/1 engine on Youtube. He's put science and engineering to work regarding diesels. It would be a hoot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6cR5Jx2UsM

veggie

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2020, 05:16:04 PM »

I may actually pick up a 16/2 down the road and use the 8/1 with the axial charger.

I would love an axial charger on the crankshaft of my 6/1.
If you find a good source that does not require a second mortgage to purchase, let me know.

Here's a fellow that built one for his Listeroid. Nice compact unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyJYdHzwsy4

- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

gadget

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2021, 01:33:09 AM »

I may actually pick up a 16/2 down the road and use the 8/1 with the axial charger.

I would love an axial charger on the crankshaft of my 6/1.
If you find a good source that does not require a second mortgage to purchase, let me know.

Here's a fellow that built one for his Listeroid. Nice compact unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyJYdHzwsy4

How about a radial instead of axial? There was a guy on a youtube video that was putting magnets on the pulley faces of the flywheels and pulling some power directly off the flywheels. Its like a built in rotor. I wish I could find the vidoe. Its allot of magnets but they could be spaced. You wouldn't have to surround the entire flywheel with coils, just as many as you want for power.

Why not make your own?  The windmill guys have lots of good right ups. You could also go the scrap route.  I think the hover board motors are good for 600w's. I think the washing machine direct drive motors are pretty high output but i don't remember what volts they are wound for.


cujet

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2021, 09:51:46 PM »
Of course, increasing RPM by a few can easily increase output by more than any porting changes could. We could measure volumetric efficiency and determine just how much improvement is possible. While not the same, Lycoming aircraft engines have similarly poor intake airflow setups. Yet, they operate with very good volumetric efficiency until max RPM of 2700.

Tuning the intake and exhaust with long tubes might provide some ram effect and raise the smoke limit a few watts.

Note: There are some tiny turbochargers Such as the VZ21, available on Ebay for about $110-140. They are absolutely tiny, and might be small enough to use on a 6/1. Maybe I'll purchase one...
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gadget

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2021, 05:11:43 AM »
In theory at a .9 volumetric efficiency, the 6/1 could produce 9 HP at 650 RPMs. Will never get that high with this type of head though.

But, if you can increase VE by just .1, you should be able to pick up about 1 horse. Maybe thats enough for someone thats need just a little bit more.

It would be really interesting to see how much better an original lister runs vs a clone. I can't imagine the port quality of an original cast head is as bad as these clones.

Maybe I will rig up a used airflow meter (5volt reference type) on my motor when I'm done and see what she's moving (how do I tell if my motor is female?) Now I wish I would of waited to port my head. Maybe I'll find another head to compare. My gen head is rated for 8.3kw so I have a large enough load to max my 8/1 out.

I'm surprised no ones mentioned running a horn ring.........I hope your all having a great new year.

38ac

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2021, 11:48:39 AM »
 When one takes a hard look at these heads there are two restrictions. The 90 turn which cannot be fixed and the way the seats are cut which can be fixed. I was to start working on the heads to increase flows the first thing I would fix is to unshround the valves. The way the seats are cut leaves the valve at the bottom of a deep 45 cut, totally against any notion of high flow past the seat.  When I put hard seats in these heads I move the top of that old seat back a bit and also open up the bottom to match the inserts I use. 
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gadget

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Re: Listeroid intake porting
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2021, 04:33:47 PM »
When one takes a hard look at these heads there are two restrictions. The 90 turn which cannot be fixed and the way the seats are cut which can be fixed. I was to start working on the heads to increase flows the first thing I would fix is to unshround the valves. The way the seats are cut leaves the valve at the bottom of a deep 45 cut, totally against any notion of high flow past the seat.  When I put hard seats in these heads I move the top of that old seat back a bit and also open up the bottom to match the inserts I use.

I don't remember much valve shrouding on these heads. You got me curious now, I may have to go out and look later.

I really think we need to look closer at a more accurate camshaft and timing. I suspect allot of these clones are making allot less power then rated due to camshaft issues more then anything. Especially on a long rod ratio motor.