Author Topic: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output  (Read 1636 times)

gadget

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Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« on: December 04, 2020, 07:00:07 PM »
I've been searching for an option for a low output CHP set, right around .5-1 HP. I'm looking for 300-600watts continues electric and heat output. Think small cabin type setup. I want it to run continues but be able to go a 25k hours between major rebuild(if possible) so I'm thinking low 100-200 RPM. Big piston / flywheel motor looks like the way to go.

So far, I'm thinking a listeroid may be the simplest setup, but I'm not sure what kind of power output at those speeds. I was also looking at a changfa but I think indirect injection would probably be more reliable at low speed vs the changfa direct injection. Its going to also run on oil.

Issues with the lister that I know about would be the oiling and lower "running compression". I'm also dealing with altitude which will further decrease air volume.

1) Add extra pressurized oil system.
   - Oil sprayer for under side of piston. This should get the cylinder oiled and the Rod small and large end.
   - Oil stream for the mains ( in addition to existing???)
   - Extra oil for all camshaft points
   - Add oil filter while at it.
   - Any thing else?

2) Add a blower
   - centrifugal - vane style
   - belt driven
   - 1-3 PSI

3) Water dripper for coaking issues

4) Governor mods for smoother low RPM response(?)

generator would be a permanent magnet driven directly off the flywheel (Radial or axial)

Possible?


Hugh Conway

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2020, 10:47:49 PM »
Gadget......
 I don't have a lot of experience with what you are thinking about doing but will put in my $.02 anyway.
You can probably do this. IIRC, there is a long time LEF member who is off-grid, and runs his 6/1 at 300 rpm for battery charging. He has been doing it for a long time with no apparent oiling issues. There is plenty of oil thrown around even at low rpm, so maybe no need to add the complication of pressure oiling. Remove the crankcase access door, secure a rag over the opening and run at low speed, you will see the amount of oil that gets .....well, everywhere. Ask me how I know......without the rag! The mains are drip feed as well as the splash so they are well lubed.
You could up the compression (adjusting the squish clearance) easily by reducing the thickness of the cylinder base gasket(s) or installing a COV in place of the usually installed plug and keep it in the cold start position.
Oil for the cam......seems the only problem point there is the area that is directly below that bolt that should be removed to lube the cam prior to starting after the engine has been sitting for a long time. I think another member welded a pin on to the bottom of that bolt to catch additional splash and let it drip directly onto the cam bearing area.
Blower......I am clueless there, but it has been done by others. Maybe you won't need that anyway.
Water injection.....I just use  a spray bottle and squirt some distilled water into the intake every so often. There are some informative threads from others with a lot of good info about different water injection methods.
Gov mods.....I played around with different springs and got my gov to hold 60 Hz very closely (at 650rpm). There is a thread on the WOK about gov springs.
PMG......I use one, belt drive. Direct drive seems not able to absorb the power impulses so well, but is done. Serpentine belts seem to last forever, inexpensive and readily available.....even at a wrecking yard.
Give it a try. As a good friend says, it's not an experiment if it can't fail.
Before I post this, here's an old thread with a good discussion (including more links) about low Rpm running. very informative from those who have more experience than I.
https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7498.0
Good luck and keep us informed of your progress!
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

veggie

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2020, 08:10:07 PM »
For continuous running you will somehow have to deal with valve train lubrication.
Also, oil filtration may allow for longer oil change intervals.
Combine the solutions...
Consider this idea for continuous long runs with a 6/1 CS style.
It is something I am considering for my Listeroid.

-Replace the oil drain plug with a TEE fitting.
  one port on the tee is for draining
  one port on the tee is to connect a very small gear pump
-Draw oil from the sump with a small gear pump and pass it through an oil filter

From the filter you can branch to several locations in order to get the oil back to the sump.
 1] The camshaft oiling plug near the decompression lever (this will solve any cam bearing lube issues)
 2] If you want to include the valve as well, use a tube up to the valve assembly to trickle over the rockers and valves.
     To drain the valve area you drill/tap a drain hole in the side of the cast iron ledge surrounding the valve chamber.
     From there it can drain back to the camshaft lubrication plug by the decompression lever.

Obviously the flow must be very low, so a tiny gear pump is needed. (Or a larger gear pump with a bypass line taking the majority of the oil directly back to the sump while some oil goes to lubricate the valve system.

This is an old video but it does show a small gear pump running off my auxiliary crank pulley.
From the gear pump the oil passes through the filter and back into the sump. (I vented the crankcase elsewhere with a check valve).
Further modification to this system would be to TEE a connection before the oil goes back into the crankcase and divert some up to the valves.
Then have it drain into the camshaft lube port discussed above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l562wUof59c
The vid is a bit lengthy but you can jump to the 0:30 second mark to see the lube system.


good luck with your project,
veggie

- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

Hugh Conway

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2020, 10:00:43 PM »

Valve lubrication for continuous operation......good point Veggie!

I'm always looking for the most simple and foolproof way to do things. Being  a simple kind of guy.....
For valve gear lube on long or continuous running, my solution would be a gravity feed oiling system. A container of a litre or 2 capacity of clean oil with a manifold having as many valved off-takes as is wanted.....say of 1/8 copper tube. Each lube point can be individually adjusted. I don't think the cam would require any additional lube oil, as when running, it gets plenty.
Some advantages:
inexpensive and very easy to fabricate (big point for me)
No modification of the engine
no moving parts (failure points)and gravity is usually fairly reliable.
and........
clean oil being applies to the valve gear........no dirty black crankcase oil oozing over the top end (and recall the sump is there to collect nasty stuff) It is as difficult to remove as ball point pen ink from a white shirt.
Cheers
Hugh

 
 
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

veggie

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2020, 12:57:27 AM »
@Hugh

In your scenario where would the oil go after lubricating the valve assembly. (Assuming oil is continuously dripping onto the valve train)

cheers
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

Hugh Conway

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2020, 03:30:28 AM »
@Hugh

In your scenario where would the oil go after lubricating the valve assembly. (Assuming oil is continuously dripping onto the valve train)

cheers
Oil would go same place as it goes when we apply oil from an oil can for shorter runs
It's a total loss oiling system. Some early motorcycles and many early stationary systems used that system.
like this one....
Cheers,
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

mike90045

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2020, 03:41:25 AM »
@Hugh

In your scenario where would the oil go after lubricating the valve assembly. (Assuming oil is continuously dripping onto the valve train)

cheers

What doesn't drain into the cylinder via the valve guides (which need a bit of lube anyway) overflows and drips down the side of the engine .  At least on mine, that seems to be where half the drops from my oil can go.

Hugh Conway

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2020, 06:29:18 PM »
@Hugh



What doesn't drain into the cylinder via the valve guides (which need a bit of lube anyway) overflows and drips down the side of the engine .  At least on mine, that seems to be where half the drops from my oil can go.

Rust prevention......clever, those Lister engineers.

JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project

gadget

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2020, 04:01:01 AM »
This is all very encouraging, it seems like the oil issue is the biggest hurdle

veggie

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2020, 03:50:39 PM »


A common way during the golden age of Lister CS industrial applications was to pack a lot of grease around the valve train.
The engine could be left for days or weeks without attention.
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

cujet

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2020, 12:51:00 AM »
If you are using a battery setup, why not cycle the engine on/off, and run it at 600 RPM? I can't imagine an engine producing 1HP will make enough electrical power to be useful.

I'm guessing that a significant storage battery is going to be necessary.
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

gadget

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2020, 02:41:17 PM »
If you are using a battery setup, why not cycle the engine on/off, and run it at 600 RPM? I can't imagine an engine producing 1HP will make enough electrical power to be useful.

I'm guessing that a significant storage battery is going to be necessary.

Cujet,

That is a very good question that needs to be asked. I will say, cycling the motor for a few hours a day is still a very good option though it would have to be a good hot charge on the batteries.

My initial interest came from reading about small but continues output from small hydroelectric power from small streams.  You don't need much if its 24/7 since it adds up. Now for a home, 300watts x 24hours = 7.2 kwh's might not be enough but for a cabin or rather a survival bunker, that is a ton of power.

Some good points for a small power 24/7 setup;

- No cold start cycle losses for higher efficiency and longer oil life. Should be easier on the motor with consistent temps
- Easier on batteries if there is a constant charge input and reduced charging temps
- Longer battery life since they would only be needed for infrequent large loads and not the continues loads
- Increase efficiency from less load going through batteries (very lossy)
- Closer match to continues loads like lights and blower fans
- Slower engine RPM should give longer life per running hour since RPM load/stress is an exponential curve.
- Continues heat output for domestic hot water use and hydronic heating. Less water tank temp cycling
- Comforting rhythmic engine noise 24/7

What am I missing here?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 08:46:12 PM by gadget »

cujet

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2020, 10:27:35 PM »
 
What am I missing here?


The BSFC curve of any diesel engine varies markedly over RPM and load. I've seen some interesting (but casual) Listeroid fuel efficiency tests. It's pretty clear that Listeroid engines don't have any advantage from a HP produced vs. fuel consumed point of view, when compared to modern diesels. In fact, the spec on my data plate is 268 grams of fuel per KW hour, or 0.44 pounds of fuel per HP hour. The very same efficiency as the gasoline engine (Lycoming IO360) in my airplane.

I wish I had some better data on Listeroid efficiency. Maybe a consumption map with fuel efficiency "Islands" much like the pro's produce. In any case, it's pretty clear that there is a "sweet spot" with regard to operational speed (often related to piston speed) and load. Note: in the map below, the lower RPM ranges at high loads are far more efficient than the higher RPM ranges at lower loads (same HP output)

One relatively common theme in diesel fuel consumption maps is that higher loads and middle of the RPM range is often the most efficient. Speculation: A Listeroid can operate from around 350 to 1000 RPM, so 650 would be right in the middle, and somewhere just below the smoke limit would likely be most efficient.

It's also good to note that the lowly 1.9L VW TDI engine achieves a best BSFC number less than 200 grams per KW hour.



 



« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 10:37:53 PM by cujet »
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veggie

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2020, 06:55:52 PM »
Yes, I have also heard that the little Kubota Z482 twin diesels are more efficient than Listers.

The original post included "slow speed" running, which would also save considerable fuel use provided enough HP is created to power whatever charging system you plan to use.
Many users have run Lister(roids) at 350 rpm driving an automotive alternator at 30 amps (12 volt) for 8 hrs a day.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 06:59:25 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

hwew

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Re: Reduced HP / RPM. Setting up for continues run, low output
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2020, 11:59:10 PM »
I've been searching for an option for a low output CHP set, right around .5-1 HP. I'm looking for 300-600watts continues electric and heat output. Think small cabin type setup. I want it to run continues but be able to go a 25k hours between major rebuild(if possible) so I'm thinking low 100-200 RPM. Big piston / flywheel motor looks like the way to go.

So far, I'm thinking a listeroid may be the simplest setup, but I'm not sure what kind of power output at those speeds. I was also looking at a changfa but I think indirect injection would probably be more reliable at low speed vs the changfa direct injection. Its going to also run on oil.

Your looking for only 300 to 600 watts?
A listeroid is too large. It will never heat up enough. There is just too much iron to soaking up the heat. It will coke up, and cylinder will most likely glaze up with such a light load. And a gooey mess coming out of the exhaust. I doubt the crankcase will get hot enough to evaporate the moisture.

If you can find an R-165  and slow it down I would think it might be a better setup. It's only rated to 3hp.
Running it at around 1800 might give you around 1.5 hp. With friction and losses in a belt setup it might get you to where you need to be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 01:05:57 AM by hwew »