Lister Engines > Listeroid Engines
Low oil temperature
tubes_rock:
I have a recently-running 1999 Metro 6/1. It's hooked up to an ST-5 generator head. I'm using a thermo-siphon and 20 feet of baseboard heating cores as a cooling system. I have machined an adapter for an automotive thermostat (195 degrees) be be placed in the head to regulate temperature. The cylinder head heats to about 190 before the glycol starts flowing and holds a temperature between 193 and 205 for the entire time of the engine's running.
Here's the question: no matter what load I put on the engine, everything from idle to a continuous 3,500 watts being pushed by the generator, hours at a time, the water remains nearly constant in temperature, and heats quickly at initial startup because of the thermostat. I'm running just under a gallon of Rotella SAE30 oil in the sump. No matter the load, no matter the time the engine runs (often 8 hours or more at a time), the base of the crankcase never exceeds 130 degrees, which tells me that the oil never exceeds 130 degrees. It takes quite a wile (well over an hour of hard running) to attain this temperature.
I've always done well by the rule of never starting an internal combustion engine unless I plan on getting the oil good and hot to drive out the moisture byproducts of combustion, and in my mind, that means getting the oil above 212 degrees for a reasonable length of time. In this engine, however, that does not seem possible, and concerns me about the oil life and the buildup of acids and other unwanted chemistry.
A secondary question with this is that if the sump always stays relatively cool, should I consider putting a 15 weight oil, or a multi-viscosity oil (15W-40?) for winter? It's not uncommon for me to want to run this engine at temperatures well below freezing, and since the sump never gets hot, I'm seriously wondering about the effective splashing action of honey-thick oil in there.
What has experience taught all of you who have had their engines run far more hours than I have yet to put on mine?
I made a (crummy) video of the engine to show the guy that I bought it from that I got it running, and it shows the cooling system, mounting, generator, etc, in case you're curious about the layout or perhaps I've made some fundamentally poor design choices that I need to address. Feedback and your own experience welcomed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPBrGu09J9U
Thanks!
--Justin
38ac:
In these engines you are stuck with cool oil temps and the problems that creates. You will need to run either a lighter grade of oil or multi grade in cold weather. It's easier on your arm when starting and better for the engine also as cold tbick oil doesn't splash. Every engine that leaves my shop has 15W 40 in it.
tubes_rock:
Now *that* is the answer I was looking for!
I always thought that all-season multi-vis would be the answer to a number of problems, but "everyone" always says "non-detergent, straight-weight 30," and that doesn't make sense to me. Not looking to spark an oil debate (we all know how those go), but I'm switching to 15W-40 for the winter.
Now, that actually brings up another question: Multi-viscosity oil, 15W-40 for example, is SAE15 viscosity at cold temperatures, but has polymers that thicken it with temperature so that it behaves like a 40 weight oil when hot. If the oil doesn't actually get hot, it will be 15 weight oil all the time. Is that too thin to lube the heavy and sloppy tolerances in these engines under warmer weather conditions? I just get to thinking that they specified 30 weight oil, and unless 15W-40 gets hot enough, it will always be 15 weight oil...
--Justin
AdeV:
--- Quote from: tubes_rock on November 25, 2020, 11:53:48 PM ---
I just get to thinking that they specified 30 weight oil, and unless 15W-40 gets hot enough, it will always be 15 weight oil...
--- End quote ---
The original CS engine was designed, IIRC, in the 1930s, and even then the crank case was based on the even older Lister L, which was designed in the early 1900s. 110ish years ago, there was no such thing as a multi-grade (and definitely no such thing as synthetic) oil... but the advice to use "straight 30W non-detergent" oil has somehow stuck. As other posters have said elsewhere, pretty much any modern automotive oil will be leaps and bounds better than the oil these engines were designed to use...
Now, admittedly, I wouldn't put 0W-5 anywhere near a Lister (way too thin), but anything "about as gloopy" as 15W-40 will be just fine.
The "non-detergent" comes about because these engines don't run an oil filter. Modern oils are designed to keep any bits in suspension, to be filtered out; non-detergent oils are designed to "drop" the particulate matter, thus theoretically leaving it in the sump. This is unlikely to be a big concern, though, and if it does worry you, it's a fairly simple job to add an external oil filter/pump which simply sucks oil from the sump, filters & returns it. You'll catch almost any suspended stuff that way, as nearly all of the oil will be filtered. TBH, I'd only do that if I was seeing noticeable particulates in the oil.
veggie:
Yep, the cylinder and head are far away from the crank and very little heat is conducted.
Also, unlike modern engines, the CS style does not circulate oil up to the valve assembly in the cylinder head where it would normally pick up a lot of heat. So, depending on service duration the crankcase oil is also susceptible to condensation and water gain as it does not get hot enough to boil off the moisture.
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