Breaking in a new engine

[Rtqii]

Synthetic oil during break-in will also prevent rings from seating... Even if you stop using it, the rings will never seat properly.

That is false.  Many new auto engines today come from the factory with synthetic oils in the sump.  My VW Jetta TDI came with it, my wife's Liberty CRD diesel came with it, and I know the Corvette has come with factory Mobil-1 in the sump.  None of these engines have any trouble with break-in and my Jetta can go 10,000 miles between changes and use under 1/2 qt. of oil.

I'm not sure where this urban legend started regarding synthetic oil and break-in, but I keep hearing it and it keeps getting debunked. Chris

Wow... I did not know that garage built street engines, and Listeroids, were built to the same specs as many new auto engines today.

Since this is now true on your word, why bother inspecting your Listeroid or blueprinting the machine? What am I missing here?[/ snark off]

The fact of the matter is... I have ended up with bores where the ring chatter was so bad at 10,000 miles on performance engines that I had to replace bearings on the shaft ruined by the vibration. The rings do not seat. I tried changing the oil back to mineral oil... The rings do not seat.

I pulled the pistons and cleaned all the surface film off the bores and reassembed with clean mineral oil... The rings do not seat.

Bon Ami finally seated the rings on that engine, and once the rings were seated synthetic oil ran great with no problems. But I have seen this not once, not twice, but three separate time with different engines... I am not an urban legand, I am telling you that unless you are breaking in some modern automotive engine where the OEM specifies it is ok to use synthetic during break in you can damage your engine.

You are telling me that engines like Listeroids, or the performance cart, dirt track, or street rod engine you are assembling in your shop or garage are all built to the same specs as used by some modern automotive engines. Is what you are telling really true?

All of the engines you cite are made with current OEM vehicle manufacturer standards for fit and finish.  These engines are designed with such good finishes and close tolerances that they are essentially 90-95% "broken in" the instant they're assembled.  The slight amount of burnishing of bores that happens in an engine designed after 1995 or so will happen with any oil, and isn't the big swarf-generating event of decades gone by.

Listeroids definitely qualify as older technology, and the older rules apply.  With old iron, break in is essentially the final machining operation in building the engine.  During break-in, coarse finishes on cylinder bore, crank journals, tappets and camshaft lobes are buffed smooth in an oil bath.  Accordingly, the oil in the sump needs to perform the functions of the oils used in machine shops duirng cutting, grinding, and honing operations on ferrous metals.

aqmxv has it dead on correct above. Please feel free to do your own thing and try to break in an older or shop built engine using synthetic oils... And don't complain when your engine is never quite right afterwards. I have done it, I know better... Ignore the wisdom of experience and hands on education and tell us about urban legands like how a VW Jetta TDI, Liberty CRD diesels, and Corvettes use the same specs and materials coming from India in a Listeroid.

[slowspeed1953]

heat and speed then load.

Peace&Love , Darren

[europachris]

Apples and oranges.  All of the engines you cite are made with current OEM vehicle manufacturer standards for fit and finish.  These engines are designed with such good finishes and close tolerances that they are essentially 90-95% "broken in" the instant they're assembled.  The slight amount of burnishing of bores that happens in an engine designed after 1995 or so will happen with any oil, and isn't the big swarf-generating event of decades gone by.

Ah YES!  I stand humbly corrected.  Indeed, modern engines today are basically broken in from day one (in comparison to the old stuff).  BIG BIG difference.

I still wonder tho, that after the engine is well broken in, synthetic could be used for it's much better film strengh, especially since the engine is splash lube only???

Chris

[europachris]

europachris:

careful how you drag your quotes,,,, it looks like the couple of things belong to me,,, when in reality only one does

that is the detroit

detroits will be ruined in as little as 20 minute of run time with no load,,, after overhaul.

source 30 years experience and Detroit Diesel Allison

a detroit will not build any heat if allowed to run at idle speeds and no load, thus will glaze up, and pump oil

bob g

Thanks, Bob.  I didn't notice I had two quotes in there.  I was only referring to the synthetic comment.

However, regarding Detroits, I get to 'play' with a 16V-149T on our 1MW backup generator at work.  What a beast!  It's kept toasty warm and ready to go with a Kim Hotstart pump system for both oil and coolant.

Chris

[mobile_bob]

16v-149,,, wow,,, you lucky bastaad!!!

that thing is likely an animal... would love to see it laboring underload...

bob g

[europachris]

16v-149,,, wow,,, you lucky bastaad!!!

that thing is likely an animal... would love to see it laboring underload...

bob g

Me too.  I've not even heard it run yet since I've only been here about a month.

I'm putting together a full preventative maintenance program for it along with a yearly load bank test on-site to the full 1MW capacity.  That will be fun.

Then I can turn it over to our maintenance department to keep it current.

Chris

[Rtqii]

Ah YES!  I stand humbly corrected.  Indeed, modern engines today are basically broken in from day one (in comparison to the old stuff).  BIG BIG difference.

I still wonder tho, that after the engine is well broken in, synthetic could be used for it's much better film strengh, especially since the engine is splash lube only??? Chris

Yes, and oil performance can be maintained over a long time by adding a bypass filter system... Changing the filter and putting in some fresh oil. You could run a long, long time with a system like this.

But as long as you are using the stock filter (or lack thereof) you should avoid high detergent oil... Also, it has been awhile since I have run anything with special lubrication requirements, but I wonder if synthetic is available in a straight weight oil without all the viscosity enhancers. Multi-viscosity oil actually has less oil in it than straight weight, you get better film strength under load with a straight weight oil. The best lubrication strategy for a fully broken in Listeroid may turn out to be a straight weight synthetic with a quality filter system adapted for filtering.

[Doug]

So I wonder where this leaves the humble Petter?

It has an oil filter and full presure lube, but its also a 1949 design with babbit on brass bearings. I always believed in detergent oils in everything I use. I change oil like underware, and this seems to have served me well.

My grandfather and I used to debate this endlessly in his B&S motors at the cottage. He said the straight non detergent oils were better. I said they gummed up the rings ( after that point the STP cleaned them in my opinion ) and created sludge in the engines. His B&S burned oil in a couple of years service, my slower turning Onans ran a lot longer on 15-40 detergent.

Now I have to scratch my head, I realy don't know what to run in my 10-1

Doug

[Rtqii]

Now I have to scratch my head, I realy don't know what to run in my 10-1

Doug

The type of oil you run depends in large part on the type of oil filtration you use. If you have decent filters with the ability to absorb some moisture (clots of emulsion), run a high detergent oil. If you have little or no filtration, use low detergent or non detergent oil.

It may appear that a non detergent oil is "creating gum & sludge" - Actually, what happens is the gum and sludge drops out of the oil instead of circulating... And if you have no filtration to speak of, this is exactly what you want.

If you use detergent oil the gum and sludge is still in there, only it is circulating around in the oil, held in suspension by the action of the detergents... Which is fine if you have decent filtration.

[europachris]

In addition, there are detergents and then there are DISPERSANTS.  Aircraft engine oil is either a non-detergent oil or an Ashless Dispersant oil.  Dispersants, as i understand, are what keeps the bits in suspension.  Detergents do the cleaning.  I'll have to review my oil terminology again.

Many of the dispersant oils also have added anti-wear compounds added that the non-detergent oils don't have.  I wonder if a non-detergent oil could be formulated with top-shelf anti-wear, anti-foam and other good additives, but just not the detergents?  That would be the ticket for a Lister.

Currently, I run 15W-40 diesel oil in the ChangFa 185, and Philips X/C 20W-50 Ashless Dispersant oil in the 1946 Cessna 140.  The Continental C-85 engine has just a screen for the full flow system.  I really should install the spin-on adaptor that can be added for "REAL" filtering.....

Chris

[mobile_bob]

another thought on break in and oils in general

if it was me,, i would not run a new engine for 100 hrs on the same oil,,,
i would probably change it after the break in,,, and as described likely at the end of
a 1 to 2 hour breakin procedure.

then i would stick to a good quality non detergent 30 or 40 weight oil myself.

i would not go with a synthetic, basically because of cost, and the fact that the
sump does not get hot enough to boil off condensation,, so the extended life that synthetic's offer
would not be of much use to me.

at the very least i would probably remove and filter the oil externally with a 1 micron filter, and then reuse it
if i didnt see condensation concerns,,, but probably just reuse it as fuel and change to new oil.

my thinking is there are issues to be resolved with big end rod brg shells, and until a resolution is attained
new oil is cheap insurance.

bob g

[Rtqii]

another thought on break in and oils in general

if it was me,, i would not run a new engine for 100 hrs on the same oil,,,
i would probably change it after the break in,,, and as described likely at the end of
a 1 to 2 hour breakin procedure.

then i would stick to a good quality non detergent 30 or 40 weight oil myself.

I agree. Definately change the oil after the first 90 mins or so... And again a couple or three hours later. I agree 100% on the oil type too, at least thru break-in.

What I am completely ignorant about (and need to know) is the recommended oil change interval for running these engines after break-in.

As for synthetics, I know synthetics work... They work so well they can keep an engine from breaking in properly and they definately reduce wear compared to mineral oil. The cost of synthetic is a problem, and the crankcase temps by all accounts never get warm enough to drive off moisture.

Maybe a synthetic/mineral oil blend with normal oil change intervals would be a more cost effective solution.

[aqmxv]

So I wonder where this leaves the humble Petter?

It has an oil filter and full presure lube, but its also a 1949 design with babbit on brass bearings. I always believed in detergent oils in everything I use. I change oil like underware, and this seems to have served me well.

Now I have to scratch my head, I realy don't know what to run in my 10-1

I'd say it falls in the same category as a lot of other diesels with full-flow lube and not-very-tight tolerances.  If you're running normally aspirated, I strongly doubt that you're going to get the oil hot enough to coke.  If that's the case, then you may want to worry more about resting time and oil below 160 F entraining water than you should about high-temp oxidation, breakdown, or detergency.

If it's going to be running most of the time, do whatever must be done to keep the crankcase temp in the 170+ range when running, then pick a diesel-grade multi-vis detergent synthetic with a big bottom number.  Something like a 15W40 would work well.  Use a bypass filter with it and run the oil for years at a time.  Yes, the oil might be a little thin until the engine gets hot, so you might want to run it at 1/3 load until it gets warm after a shutdown, but in steady-state it should be happy.

If it's going to be sitting most of the time, put fossil oil in it.  You need to change the oil every 6 months or so anyway to get rid of the water.  I'd try something like a 20W50 with some diesel rating.  Frankly, your tribology problems are simpler than those of we listeroid owners...

Now, after having made a recommendation, I'm going to throw a wrench (oh, wait, it's Whitworth, so I guess it's a spanner) in things:

In the USA, at least, multigrade oils that meet the needs of listeroids and petteroids are about to get a lot rarer.  It's all EPA's fault (again).  They want ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate) out of engine oils because it poisons catalytic converters.  The problem is that ZDDP is almost the best shear resistance additive we've got.  Things are looking bleak for engines with sliding-contact tappets or gear driven cams, and Listeroids and Petteroids have both.  This is an issue that is starting to get a fair amount of coverage in the motorhead press.  Motorcycle guys have worried about this for some time (transmissions run in engine oil), and now everybody with a 55-93 (or so) small-block chevy is in the crosshairs as well.  I know about this because my Corvairs also have sliding contact tappets and gear drive cams.

We seem to be going back to the days of yore when you had to add stuff to the oil just to avoid premature engine death.  Frankly, I think it blows.  The good news is that your friendly GM dealer has been ordering cases of GM camshaft and lifter prelube (PN 12345501) lately, because it's now a GM requirement that oil changes done on cars with non-roller tappets get a shot of the stuff because of all the ZDDP not in the (API SL-rated) oils they keep around the shop.  As a result, they will happily sell you a bottle for a reasonable fee.  Right now, you can escape by running a diesel oil, but, since diesels are all going to be required to run cats for NOx control very soon, the "no ZDDP problem" is about to get a lot more common.

Here are some articles I could find online that give background on this: 
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0606_understanding_motor_oil/index.html

BTW, GM EOS GM EOS assembly lubricant (PN 1052367) has loads of good stuff your new listeroid or petteroid would like to have in the sump at first start up.  No, I'm not a GM dealer in any form, but it's good stuff, and is recommended by all the car aftermarket cam manufacturers for break-in of a new cam because it's cheap, readily available, and works.

I have absolutely no idea how this relates to folks in Canada, the UK, or Europe.  I'm guessing that Canada is going to get stuck with the same junk we're getting, and I sincerely hope that the EU are having an attack of sanity about it, like they eventually did about British beer in pints.

[Doug]

More food for thought...

Thank you

Doug

[peterako]

What about the original (black) oil for the first 30 min. in combination of strong magnets and then new oil will this not help to breakin the rings. i am new end will have my listeriod ( lovson 6 hp) in one week. but it will take 2 months before it is on its final place so until then i want to breakin as good as possible.