Author Topic: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up  (Read 280 times)

tyssniffen

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timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« on: September 10, 2020, 06:37:16 PM »
sorry, I know this has been discussed; I spent time searching but can't find a clear answer.

I know that the timing can/should be adjusted based on fuel type, and I thought I had succeeded at this, but I think I need to work harder at it.

One problem that I believe I'm creating is that I've always bought into the idea of starting and stopping on store bought diesel, and then switching over to WVO.  I've actually never succeeded at starting on WVO, perhaps due to my timing issue, or other variables. 

Still, I'm struggling with lots of carbon.   So I figure I need to tweak the timing... but what's the testing process?  How many turns on that nut under the pump per test?   Like, do I set the timing different a few degrees, run for 3 hours, pull the injector, see carbon, turn the nut (5 times?) run for 3 hours, pull the injector, look for carbon, over and over? 

Or am I just not switching back over to diesel soon enough? Does it need to be run on diesel to scrub it up for 30 minutes or something?   

Obviously, I'm flailing around here. 

« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 06:41:10 PM by tyssniffen »
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

mike90045

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2020, 09:37:28 PM »
I have a clear segment in my fuel line, and can see the pulses as the fuel pump sucks fuel. with no load, it takes me about 30 seconds to clear a segment of line which is guess is equivalent to the HP line length  .  And then you have to purge the pump volume too

Switching between diesel and oil, I'd wait 90 seconds to get a good purge of all the stuff, because the alternative of taking the lines apart and flushing by hand, is such a pain.   90 seconds of diesel can't be all that expensive.

And for sure, try the water injection to break up the carbon deposits,  I use a squirt bottle and just spray down the manifold

glort

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 02:44:42 PM »
I'll Try to keep it short so as not to bore you to death with one of my favourite subjects.

I know that the timing can/should be adjusted based on fuel type, and I thought I had succeeded at this, but I think I need to work harder at it.

The usual stated advance is 5o advance  . No idea what that is on a lister in the method you describe.
Another way of doing it is to add 5% ULP to your oil. Because petrol has less cetane value than oil ( octane is a propensity to resist compression ignition, Cetane is is the ease of ignition under compression) ULP will light off sooner under diesel compression ratios and initiate the burn of the oil faster.


Quote
One problem that I believe I'm creating is that I've always bought into the idea of starting and stopping on store bought diesel, and then switching over to WVO.  I've actually never succeeded at starting on WVO, perhaps due to my timing issue, or other variables.

Unless you live in a sub zero Climate, I'd  think there is something you need to check on your engine, particularly the injector.
I can light  my Roid on oil as easy as Diesel.  All my little diesels which all have mechanical Pumps are the same. I doubt oil is your real problem here. The fact you are also getting a lot of carbon would also point to a less than wonderful condition  injector.  Regardless of how new or otherwise it may be, i'd strongly suggest checking the thing for pop of pressure and spray pattern in particular. Sounds Very muck like it could be streaming not spraying. 
I'd also suggest manually checking the timing on the thing to make sure you have not gone backwards.

Quote
Or am I just not switching back over to diesel soon enough? Does it need to be run on diesel to scrub it up for 30 minutes or something?   

In 20 years next month of running WVO in all manner of diesels, I think the whole change over thing is a complete and utter crock of shit and Doubly so on stationary engines like a Lister. .... Unless you live in freezing conditions and then it only applies in summer.
In winter one should be blending in 10 % Ulp and still having no need to purge.
IF you engine is right, unless the oil is thickening dramatically, oil should be no problem..... Unless its not properly prepared and has water in it which is a no no and will stuff up starting and performance.... and maybe clean running too.

Water injection does wonders for Keeping Diesels clean and you can get away with blue murder with WI  BUT, I'd me making sure the thing is running right first of all.

BTW, what exactly are you looking at to conclude the thing is getting excessive carbon? If you can see it in 3 hours run time it much be pretty bad.  If the rings are already gummed up that will make the compression low and the thing hard to start.
-IF- it's got carbon Buildup then you should start by giving it a bulk water treatment with 2-3 Liters of water slowly dribbled in the intake while it's running.  That will take out the bulk carbon but you will need a sustained and ongoing  dose for many hours to remove build up between the ring lands.... if it has any.  It sisn't get there in 5 Min, it won't be shifted in 5 min either.  An ongoing doseage of about 100Ml min under load  for 10-12 hours will clean the bulk of the buildup and then you can go to about half that for sustained cleaning and prevention.


mike90045

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2020, 05:59:00 PM »
Lets define what version of WVO is being discussed ?

 raw sump oil from the fryer that's been strained.  often here, it's solid below 80F  (grease car, with tank heaters )
clear flowing, used and strained veg oil ?
veg oil that's been processed to remove the unburnable glycerin ? (bio-diesel)

glort

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2020, 07:57:42 PM »

As far as I have always known, WVO is as you describe, from the fryer.

Biodiesel is oil that's bee processed though a chemical procedure to create a product that is very different to what was started out with.

I have never heard of the 2 being mixed up in terminology.
Also never heard of an engine that wouldn't start on Bio that would start on Diesel not one that was suffering carbon issues on Bio.

If either of those things are occourning. The engine is long over due for an over haul and the problems are nothing to do with the fuel.


As an aside, although most can't be assed doing it, WVO ( from the fryer) should ALWAYS be Dried ( water removed) .

The difference between oil straight from the fryer and oil that has been dried is night and day in starting and performance.  This is not about water that settles at the bottom of the drum although if you have that and are using oil from that container without drying it, you are begging for trouble of all kinds and Complete rubbish performance from your engine.  I'm talking about dissolved water which veg oil can hold a LOT of being very hygroscopic.

To test for dissolved water the hot pan test is simple and reliable if done correctly and there aren't many ways to stuff it up.
Gat a pan, ( pot, bit of metal) and heat it up.  it's not critical but needs to be above 300oC . Easy check  is smear an amount of oil in the pan and when the oil is smoking, the pan is hot enough. Put a teaspoon or a bit less of oil in the pan and watch it. If it Bubble, it's wet. If it spatters, don't put the stuff anywhere near your engine!! It's full of water and it will cause an engine to run like absolute shit.

If the oil is dry, nothing will happen. You may get a lazy Bubble or 2 from trapped Humidity but it won't look anything like lemonade as we oil will.

I know a lot of people dismiss this, They are often looking for the easy solution and don't want to put the extra work in or just plain don't realise the problems.  I think Drying oil is a HUGE reason some like myself can run oil for decades ( literally) and have zero problems with it even on completely stock fuel systems and other have to stuff around with preheating and other needless bullshit.
Just the difference in starting alone will make Drying oil  more than worth it.

I built a processor ( and am building one for someone atm) that filters and dries the oil in one go and after loading the thing, works all on it's own with no further hands on required till it's finished and the oil is pumped into whatever container one uses for the finished oil.

For those that haven't dried their oil and it shows wet on a hot pan test,  Dry a batch and try it and see the difference. Once you have you won't put wet oil in your engines again.

mike90045

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2020, 01:29:09 AM »
Used fryer oil here is a solid  unless well heated  That's why I asked.

glort

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2020, 02:52:59 AM »

Oil is classified here as being Liquid at room temp.
Lard or Fat is solid.  Animal fats are not often found here.
I think you have a lot of that Hydrogenated oil stuff there which I also believe is solid at room temp and from what I read, is terrible stuff health wise as well.

I have run animal fats in Summer. It's VERY good fuel.  Smells great when burned, has enough more power to notice and just works really well.  I was worried about it solidifying as I heated it before putting it in the Vehicle ( I used 25L drums I just put the fuel Hoses into) but the heat of the return fuel kept it perfectly Liquid as did the summer temps. Only needs about 30oC to keep it liquid and that's a summer night time temp here.

I don't know much about carbon issues with it, I didn't run enough.  Obviously need to Flush it through or you'd be in a world of Hurt.
Fat was what the early started used and had heated fuel tanks for the stuff. Start off On diesel then when the tank and heated lines were up to temp you could change over to fat. Definitely a longer distance fuel.

From what I have seen on forums, oil, proper oil, tends to be a lot cleaner in the US than we get on average here.  Seems it's changed a lot more often in the US and is generally still quite light honey colour where it's pretty dark here.  Best oil I ever got was when I was getting it in 1000L IBC's from the Cruise ships.  That stuff was magic.  I think they much have changed it after every meal they cooked.
Bloody Convenient getting it in 1000L lots as well.  Forked into the trailer and I could pump it out, process it then into another IBC for storage.


The worst thing about fat is getting it.  If it's in a drum you have to somehow lift 200Kg's and then leave an empty Drum.  If it's in tanks, they have heaters in them which has to be plugged in to warm the stuff so it can be pumped.
Fat would be fine for stationary use as long as one could do a decent length of time run.

tyssniffen

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2020, 09:07:13 PM »
So, thanks for all the replies on this. To clarify some of the thread drift here: I am running very well strained and dry waste vegetable oil. It is not hydrogenated oil, and stays liquid to low temperatures.  Hydrogenated oil acts more like butter in that it is solid at room temperature, and then warmed comes to liquid. (Hydrogenated means Ďwith water... so, yuck)

I am also doing the water injection to try to deal with some of this carbon buildup. Running water at the same rate as fuel.

How I know Iíve got a lot of carbon buildup, is after maybe a handful of three hour runs, the next time I go to start, I can tell the injector is blocked. I can pull the injector quickly, clean it off, test it for good spray (not drip), put it all back together, wrap pretty easily. On store-bought diesel.

I am completely open to being convinced that I can run completely on WVO, but Iím obviously got something wrong that seems to stop me from succeeding at that. I live in northern California, where it only gets to freezing one day a year, so cold temperatures are not a serious problem.

Seams almost certain I have a timing issue with this kind of fuel. How do I figure out how to get my timing set up better?
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

glort

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2020, 01:03:40 AM »

Doing the mental arithmetic, I'm still having trouble seeing it as a Timing issue unless your timing is Waaaay off..... at which point I think you'd have certainly starting if not running troubles.

Blocking an injector that quick on and IDI engine takes some serious problems. If you are getting that much carbon on the injector, I shudder to think at what is happening in the ring lands. If you are running water at the same rate as fuel and it's still happening..... Yikes!

I would Check your compression firstly and if you are comfortable, Pull the cylinder and check those Ring lands.
A quick and easy way to bump the timing would be just add 10% RUG and see what happens.  If the carbon decreases then it could well be timing but in order for it to be that, you would have to be so late the fuel is not having time to burn completely and on an engine like a lister, that's hard to imagine without seeing the thing running like crap anyway.


What happens if you run say 3-6 Hours on Diesel? Do you get the same problem?

I just can't see how with what you are doing this can be happening unless there is a Compression or a severe timing issue that would affect the engine on any fuel.  What sort of a Load are you putting on it when it is running?  It's not either running with minimal load or over loaded and smoking is it?

mike90045

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2020, 01:10:44 AM »
Hydrogenated oils have not been treated with water, they have been treated with high pressure hydrogen to change the characteristic of the oil - usually to a solid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogenation#Food_industry

tyssniffen

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2020, 05:54:58 PM »

Doing the mental arithmetic, I'm still having trouble seeing it as a Timing issue unless your timing is Waaaay off..... at which point I think you'd have certainly starting if not running troubles.

She starts pretty easy... when I have cleaned the injector, it starts up.


I would Check your compression firstly and if you are comfortable, Pull the cylinder and check those Ring lands.

I did do the full take apart in the last 12 months, and checked/cleaned all rings. (might have replaced one, can't remember now) and everything seems in regular shape... though I might not recognize cylinder damage or something.


A quick and easy way to bump the timing would be just add 10% RUG and see what happens.

sorry, what?  change the timing by 10%?  as in change where the injection happens so it's 10% further around the flywheel?  Is there an easy way to translate that 10% to twists on the timing nut?


What happens if you run say 3-6 Hours on Diesel? Do you get the same problem?

haven't done that in a while, and when I have, I've not ONLY done that  - but sometime this fall, I'll give that a go.

I just can't see how with what you are doing this can be happening unless there is a Compression or a severe timing issue that would affect the engine on any fuel.  What sort of a Load are you putting on it when it is running?  It's not either running with minimal load or over loaded and smoking is it?

yeah, weird, right?  and it seems to me that compression is ok, as it starts well.  My typical load is my house - adding power to the battery bank.  Because of the lack of decent sine wave coming off my Chinese ST, I run an AC charger -
input voltage: 108-132 VAC
input watts: 900 w
input freq: 50-60
output volts: 54.4vdc
output amps: 13

but I don't really know how much it truly pulls.  You can hear a slight bear down when it's connected.   But NO, I am not running this thing at max load much ever.   Occasionally I will run a big powerful table saw and during big cuts it will really slow, but that's 10 times a year for 2 minutes each, tops.



6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

glort

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Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2020, 05:02:36 AM »

A quick and easy way to bump the timing would be just add 10% RUG and see what happens.

sorry, what?  change the timing by 10%?  as in change where the injection happens so it's 10% further around the flywheel?  Is there an easy way to translate that 10% to twists on the timing nut?

NO!

Add 10% Gasoline ( RUG/ ULP)  to the oil .
This will advance the timing because the petrol will light off before the oil under compression and cause the ignition cycle to happen earlier in the stroke effectively brining the timing forward.

You said you haven't been able to start on  WVO but then you said it starts easy... on Diesel I presume.

Unless you are in Freezing temps, you SHOULD be able to start on WVO.

If you can't, likley candidates are Compression, Injector and or Pump and to a lesser degree, Timing.
Try the 10% Petrol and see what happens with that.  It definitely should be able to start on a 10% Mix and if it won't, it's the engine not the fuel.  If it starts easy on Diesel, should start easier on a blend.  Mix up say 25L and run that as you would use the engine normally. See what happens. If you have the carbon issue it's the pump or injector I'd say. Could be compression but 10% blend will solve a lot of problems.

If the thing runs OK on the blend, just make that it's standard fuel. In summer you should be able to cut back to 5%.

I ran vehicles for Years like that and blending is a far better option IMHO than stuffing round with 2 Tank systems.
 Did that for a lot of years too before waking up to the best way.

This is going to be a process of elimination. Try the 10% first, see how that goes then look at the next step once you have seen how that works.