Author Topic: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up  (Read 1058 times)

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« on: September 10, 2020, 06:37:16 PM »
sorry, I know this has been discussed; I spent time searching but can't find a clear answer.

I know that the timing can/should be adjusted based on fuel type, and I thought I had succeeded at this, but I think I need to work harder at it.

One problem that I believe I'm creating is that I've always bought into the idea of starting and stopping on store bought diesel, and then switching over to WVO.  I've actually never succeeded at starting on WVO, perhaps due to my timing issue, or other variables. 

Still, I'm struggling with lots of carbon.   So I figure I need to tweak the timing... but what's the testing process?  How many turns on that nut under the pump per test?   Like, do I set the timing different a few degrees, run for 3 hours, pull the injector, see carbon, turn the nut (5 times?) run for 3 hours, pull the injector, look for carbon, over and over? 

Or am I just not switching back over to diesel soon enough? Does it need to be run on diesel to scrub it up for 30 minutes or something?   

Obviously, I'm flailing around here. 

« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 06:41:10 PM by tyssniffen »
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2020, 09:37:28 PM »
I have a clear segment in my fuel line, and can see the pulses as the fuel pump sucks fuel. with no load, it takes me about 30 seconds to clear a segment of line which is guess is equivalent to the HP line length  .  And then you have to purge the pump volume too

Switching between diesel and oil, I'd wait 90 seconds to get a good purge of all the stuff, because the alternative of taking the lines apart and flushing by hand, is such a pain.   90 seconds of diesel can't be all that expensive.

And for sure, try the water injection to break up the carbon deposits,  I use a squirt bottle and just spray down the manifold

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2020, 05:59:00 PM »
Lets define what version of WVO is being discussed ?

 raw sump oil from the fryer that's been strained.  often here, it's solid below 80F  (grease car, with tank heaters )
clear flowing, used and strained veg oil ?
veg oil that's been processed to remove the unburnable glycerin ? (bio-diesel)

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2020, 01:29:09 AM »
Used fryer oil here is a solid  unless well heated  That's why I asked.

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2020, 09:07:13 PM »
So, thanks for all the replies on this. To clarify some of the thread drift here: I am running very well strained and dry waste vegetable oil. It is not hydrogenated oil, and stays liquid to low temperatures.  Hydrogenated oil acts more like butter in that it is solid at room temperature, and then warmed comes to liquid. (Hydrogenated means Ďwith water... so, yuck)

I am also doing the water injection to try to deal with some of this carbon buildup. Running water at the same rate as fuel.

How I know Iíve got a lot of carbon buildup, is after maybe a handful of three hour runs, the next time I go to start, I can tell the injector is blocked. I can pull the injector quickly, clean it off, test it for good spray (not drip), put it all back together, wrap pretty easily. On store-bought diesel.

I am completely open to being convinced that I can run completely on WVO, but Iím obviously got something wrong that seems to stop me from succeeding at that. I live in northern California, where it only gets to freezing one day a year, so cold temperatures are not a serious problem.

Seams almost certain I have a timing issue with this kind of fuel. How do I figure out how to get my timing set up better?
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2020, 01:10:44 AM »
Hydrogenated oils have not been treated with water, they have been treated with high pressure hydrogen to change the characteristic of the oil - usually to a solid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogenation#Food_industry

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2020, 05:54:58 PM »

Doing the mental arithmetic, I'm still having trouble seeing it as a Timing issue unless your timing is Waaaay off..... at which point I think you'd have certainly starting if not running troubles.

She starts pretty easy... when I have cleaned the injector, it starts up.


I would Check your compression firstly and if you are comfortable, Pull the cylinder and check those Ring lands.

I did do the full take apart in the last 12 months, and checked/cleaned all rings. (might have replaced one, can't remember now) and everything seems in regular shape... though I might not recognize cylinder damage or something.


A quick and easy way to bump the timing would be just add 10% RUG and see what happens.

sorry, what?  change the timing by 10%?  as in change where the injection happens so it's 10% further around the flywheel?  Is there an easy way to translate that 10% to twists on the timing nut?


What happens if you run say 3-6 Hours on Diesel? Do you get the same problem?

haven't done that in a while, and when I have, I've not ONLY done that  - but sometime this fall, I'll give that a go.

I just can't see how with what you are doing this can be happening unless there is a Compression or a severe timing issue that would affect the engine on any fuel.  What sort of a Load are you putting on it when it is running?  It's not either running with minimal load or over loaded and smoking is it?

yeah, weird, right?  and it seems to me that compression is ok, as it starts well.  My typical load is my house - adding power to the battery bank.  Because of the lack of decent sine wave coming off my Chinese ST, I run an AC charger -
input voltage: 108-132 VAC
input watts: 900 w
input freq: 50-60
output volts: 54.4vdc
output amps: 13

but I don't really know how much it truly pulls.  You can hear a slight bear down when it's connected.   But NO, I am not running this thing at max load much ever.   Occasionally I will run a big powerful table saw and during big cuts it will really slow, but that's 10 times a year for 2 minutes each, tops.



6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2786
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2020, 10:30:17 PM »
A related report on water injection success regarding carbon build up.  My 6/1 would always knock after cold start when the  decarbon was due.  I could delay service  by regular water spray bottle injection but a few years ago added an automatic water injector.

When it was installed, I was due for a decarbon, and despite regular spray bottle down the intake treatment, it was close to time for a tear down. 

Now, there is no sign of a knock, compression is good, exhaust is clear.  And I did NOT do a decarbon, just keep topping up the water/methanol tank.

So I do recommend water injection as a means of reducing maintenance and promoting better engine life, and I can say without a doubt that continuous water injection performs better than occasional spray bottle treatment.   I'm using a small float valve regulated tank with water level just below the intake manifold. and intake manifold vacuum sucks in the water through a small brass tube which projects into the intake manifold. It's been trouble free. 

Best Wishes,
BruceM


tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up - confession
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2020, 05:13:00 PM »
So, I realized what it probably is....  and so I should confess.   I forgot that I'd set up an experiment (that I thought was going GREAT) where I was using a smaller pulley on the ST - so I was running slower than 650.   probably 580 or so.    Everything about running slower was better, except, I guess, the carbon build up.
I've switched back to the bigger pulley and am running at 650.  I'll report back, and continue to use my water drip system as well.
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2786
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2020, 06:16:53 PM »
My guess is your actual load is likely way too small.  Put a clamp on amp meter on your output every half hour or so and I'll bet it's tapered down to nada at the end of your charge cycle.  Battery charging is a greatly diminishing load, often.  So extended idling may be a big part of the problem.  You don't mention your house AC load, so perhaps I'm way off.

I'd think about reducing speed below 580, not increasing it, to try and keep the engine hotter. In your situation increasing speed should not help.

Do you have a thermostat on your engine?  Have you checked the  head temperature?  Keeping temperature up might help.

You can get AC load sensing switches that can power an auxiliary load, to keep your minimum load up.

 I would never consider running my 6/1 Listeroid much below 1000W for 3 hours; that would be a better role for a Propane fueled inverter/generator. Adding a supplemental load when your real load is too low could help greatly, at some expense in fuel.  If the minimum load-supplemental load does something useful, all the better.
If you confirm that your load is below 800W for an hour of your run time, I'd be glad to help you as needed with the current sensing relays plus time delay relay for an automatic, auxiliary load.

I also think that not enough load, not enough heat, might also explain why your continuous drip water injection isn't working.  My engine controller (PicAxe 40X2) turns off water injection when there is no load (and turns off the engine in 10 minutes). Without adequate load and heat, the water injection may be making things worse, not better.

Best Wishes,
BruceM



tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2020, 06:36:19 PM »
interesting.   well, no, I don't have any other metering on my load than volts and htz.    The head sure heats up though, where my 40 gal radiator tank (sitting outside the shed, in not-too-cold northern California) gets almost too hot to touch.    I have a simple kil-o-watt meter, but I can't easily put that in line, as the higher amp plugs don't fit it.

Getting more load on while charging the house isn't difficult of course.  In fact, I have TWO AC chargers (I have 2 battery banks) and could easily run them at the same time. 

But, just to really check - you really don't think the slower speed was the problem? and that running at 580 is BETTER than running at 650?
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2786
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2020, 07:00:17 PM »
Yes, running  at lower speed is better, not worse (though of limited value) for heat when running a small load. You can then have a smaller "safe" minimum load for a diesel.

A clamp on AC amp meter is cheap, (<$30) you'd best get one for your kit of essential tools and see what your load really is.  Too small a load is one explanation that fits your issues.

One of your contributing "too cool engine" problems might be the large cooling tank if used without thermostat;  it is designed for long run times at half load or better, takes a long time to get up to temperature with light loads.  It adds to your problem.  Being too hot to touch for more than a second is only 165F.  It's good that you get there, so again, I could be wrong about this whole too light load, too cool engine theory, but it fits.   

Having injector tip deposits after 3- 3hr runs sure would want me to look at load current, and coolant temperatures during those 3 hr runs!  Especially with water injection.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 07:02:55 PM by BruceM »

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2020, 06:55:11 AM »
With my 6/1 running a 2300w battery charging load, it takes at least 60 minutes to warm the head and 15 gallons of coolant from 50F to 130F (best of my recall)  I don't run much in the summer, except smokey days at 1PM


veggie

  • Keep Calm and Start the Lister !
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 610
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2020, 04:54:03 PM »
+1 for what others have said.
-Running slower is not an issue provided there is sufficient load to generate heat.
 Mine runs at 475 rpm and warms up nicely due to the inline thermostat on the head discharge line.
-Some sort of temperature control to speed up the warming process is helpful (Thermostat).
 Large hoppers with thermosyphon and no thermostat can take ages to build up enough heat in the head to allow complete combustion.

veggie
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
Re: timing adjustment for WVO to reduce carbon build up
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 05:15:44 PM »
ok, well, sounds like my radiator is too big for the sort of running I'm doing.   interesting.  I'll try and get a thermostat in the system.   Suggestions on where to check temps?   I could use one of those digital laser things and track temps of different parts over time....

I will also up the load.    Glad to hear it's not the slower speed.
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.