So how do you do this? (New to Listeroid)

[bruss01]

Hello all, yes I am a noob to both this forum and to the listeroid type of engine.  As a result I have a lot of questions that may bore some of you.  In fairness I have done quite a bit of research, but have not found what I need in one place and there are conflicting opinions and serious gaps.  I've ordered the utterpower CD, it's en-route (I hope).  My impression of George's web site is that he has a LOT of knowledge... and that presenting it in an organized, coherent fashion is not his strong suit. I'm hoping the CD will disprove that last assertion.  Still, I'm grateful that the information is presented AT ALL, even if one has to work for it a bit.

I'm interested in finding a reliable long-term power source for a remote property my wife and I are considering.  I discovered the lister/listeroid type of engine quite by accident on the internet, and instantly fell in love.  It appears simple, easy to work on, capable of lasting decades of daily use, and economical to power. Plus I just love the retro factor. Perfect.

Now, however, the questions begin.  I've been researching these online for the past week, and I'm beginning to get a bigger picture.  Some people have EPA concerns, others state the new restrictions don't apply to stationary engines.  I've read a lot in this forum.  Especially, I've followed the trials and travails of hotater, whose machine seems to need constant tending and tweaking.  He has the benefit of a full machine shop in his garage (or so it seems!) and decades of experience to back it up.  I'm handy with tools, have rebuilt an engine before, and prior to my current vehicle have always done all my own automotive work (mostly).  But I don't have a machine shop or any fancy specialized tools at my disposal.  (wait, does a drill press or a dremmel count? Those I have... )Some (includiing himself, I believe) have stated that his listeroid is not a fair example of the breed, and maybe was a "worst of the bunch" example.  I have no problem with putting some "sweat equity" into something that will return dividends of satisfaction - but I'm not interested in trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, just to say I did either.

If I were to get a listeroid, obviously I want one that will not make me rue the day I was born.  I'm willing (nay, eager) to swing wrenches and screwdrivers on it's behalf, swap parts, tweak and tune.  But I don't have sophisticated high dollar tools at hand with which to do so (lathe, mill, etc).  Is it possible to get a listeroid that is reasonably well-balanced (or balance it after the fact), that is not more full of sand than a cat-box, which is capable of being made into a reliable machine capable of serving decades without a full machine shop and staff on speed-dial?  Who makes the best?  Can I get one shipped directly to the Port of Sacramento?  What's all this going to cost?  1 cyl or 2?  I like both designs, but the 2 cylinder seems inherently more prone to downtime due to increased part count. But is it better balanced?  I would think so, but....   The reason I ask, I can provide a steel frame, even heavy wooden timbers for it to mount to, but I cannot pour a slab nor bolt to an existing slab where we are now.  The engine would get occasional use where we are now, but would ideally be a full-time power plant at our remote property. What's the biggest ST generator that would be advisable for a 6/1 - how about a 12/2?

Basically, is there a "how to" guide that covers step-by-step how to choose an engine, a vendor, make the order, etc.. etc.. right up to flipping the switch and enjoying your power?  So far I have seen no explanation of how to get a 700 lb chunk of cast iron off a trailer and into your garage... does everyone out there have a ton of burly friends, or maybe a forklift out back under a tarp?  I have neither.  I'm nervous about sending a ton of money to a foreign country beyond the reach of US law, but if that could be addressed can I order directly from the manufacturer (provided someone there speaks English!)?  Ship directly to Port of Sacramento?  Are listeroid parts "standard" across manufacturers?  For instance, will a valve guide or push rod from one mfr fit a listeroid made by a different mfr?  Pistons, rods etc interchangeable?  You can probably tell from that last question that I work on PC's a lot, where most components ARE in fact, interchangeable within limits.

I know... lot's of questions.  Maybe some of them will be answered by the CD, but I'm sure that a lot of them will not be.  Anyone care to help a fella out?  Thanks in advance.

[JohnF13]

Bruss;

Sure, you can order directly from India - ask Cujet how that works!  Seriously, you should look at a North American supplier (there are a few) who is willing to stand behind what he sells.  That way you have somone in the Country that you can call/email/bug if something is "not quite right".

As for parts, most Listeroids of the same hp rating share the same parts with the exception of the GM models, they are a little different. As you go up in size, you may find that some things are different - such as thew valves on a 10/1 are bigger than those on a 6/1.

As a rule of thumb, you need 2 hp for every kw of power you get - i.e. 3kw needs a 6hp motor.  Here comes the exception!  With Listeroids you can usually get a bit more power, a 6/1 will give you about 3.8kw and a 12/2 will get you around 8.8kw.

There is a lot of discussion about he EPA regs in the U.S., I'm in Canada so I really don't understand it, but my U.S. counterparts tell me that EPA has effectively stopped the import of Lister type engines.  That doesn't mean to say you can't get one - there are engines out there and some are bringing in "parts" that can be put together to make a running engine.

You don't need a full-fledged machine shop to own a Listeroid.  For the most part simple tools will do the trick - it may take a while longer, but nothing is impossible with a bit of ingenuity.

There are no "how-to's" in selecting a vendor (or an engine) Look around on this list, do a Google search for "Lister engines" and see what pops up.  There are lots of us out there running these machines 16-24 hours/day with few probems - a lot of the time all you see on boards such as this one ARE problems, you never get much in the way of "well, my engines is working fine, thank you"....

Last word - if you can, go for a single.  The Indians have made many more of these than the twins and they are beginning to get the hang of it.  Singles are easier to work on and quicker to fix if there is ever  problem.

If you need anything else, PM me.

[Andre Blanchard]

There are lots of us out there running these machines 16-24 hours/day with few probems - a lot of the time all you see on boards such as this one ARE problems, you never get much in the way of "well, my engines is working fine, thank you"....

Or to put it another way some people just run the engine, could not give a shit less about computers, and think the internet is how you catch fish in international waters. 

[bitsnpieces1]

bruss01 
  You might consider getting a genuine Lister. They are available just not plentiful or cheap.  Eliminates the sand, wonky parts, etc.  And like JohnF13 said about the parts.  Definitely wait until after you have read the Utterpower CD.  Nothing says you can't have two 6/1s instead of a twin. 
  About the EPA,  from what I've been able to find (as of Jul 2006) they are exempt from the regs as long as they remain in a stationary installation and are properly labeled as such.  OR as long as they "remain in the original configuration" of a Lister CS which was manufactured more than 21 years ago. 

[aqmxv]

Hi bruss01, I'm another newbie to listeroids, but have quite a bit of other semi-related experience with everything from snowmobiles to marine engines.

George's Utterpower CD is the closest thing there is to a manual.  It's definitely not everything you're looking for, but it at least is full of ideas.

Everyone seems agreed that if you want quality out of the box, try to get a good used real Lister from the UK and refurbish it.  You should probably regard a listeroid as a semi-finished kit, and treat it accordingly.  the good news is that most of the problems appear to be fit-and-finish related and should be sufficiently remediable without resort  to machine tools.  As it is, I have a neighbor who's a machinist ( http://www.jensensteamengines.com ) and would undoubtedly get a kick out of helping with this sort of thing.

The toughest part for someobdy in a garage like me is handling heavy lumps of cast iron.  I can do up a hoist easily to a floor joist, but something like a roller crane sure would be nice, and I'm old enough that moving 125 lb flywheels around isn't a completely trivial thing to do by hand.  I might finally have to break down and buy an engine hoist (corvair engines only weigh about 250 lbs completely assembled - never needed one).  To be sure - you want to strip, inspect, and clean any listeroid before starting it.  Also to be sure - you'll probably find yourself doing a lot of measure, fit and finish before it's back together.  And I don't care what kind of engine it is - it should be properly balanced.  It probably isn't in the crate, so you get to do it.  The bump method described elsewhere here is adequate.

I'm also dealing with the fact that, like you, I have to have temporary/portable mounting.  Historically, engines like this were often mounted on heavy skids for portable use, and Lister built a delivery truck with the engine mounted on a drive wheel.  I understand that the concrete block mounting is ideal, but I'm probably going to be moving in a year or two.  One thing I am certain of - if you're going to do a portable mount, stick to the lighter, slower engines like the 6/1.

Generator sizes are pretty well laid out already.  A 6/1 will run a 3.5 KW gen head well.  I'm going to use a 5 KW because I may use the head on something else as well, and having the windings running well below rating might cost some efficiency, but will gain me a cooler generator.  A 12/2 would use either a 7.5 or 10 KW head.

So far I have seen no explanation of how to get a 700 lb chunk of cast iron off a trailer and into your garage... does everyone out there have a ton of burly friends, or maybe a forklift out back under a tarp?  I have neither.

Ha!  Neither have I.  I had the receiving guy at work fork the pallet in to my Corvair van, and it's been in there ever since.  I've spent the last two days thinking, fabricating and rigging something to get this thing out of the van (which has a 18" floor height, thankfully) and onto the garage floor so I can uncrate it.  I can tell you this - simple machines are your friends.  In my case, the pulley, the lever, and the roller are all going to get a workout tonight.  If you're applying direct muscle to a whole listeroid and you're not a weight lifter, you're probably going to hurt yourself.

    I'm nervous about sending a ton of money to a foreign country beyond the reach of US law, but if that could be addressed can I order directly from the manufacturer (provided someone there speaks English!)?  Ship directly to Port of Sacramento?  Are listeroid parts "standard" across manufacturers?

Most people here are buying from somebody doing a batch import, often as part of a larger business.  There's a lot of voodoo about EPA regs, but my engine, at least, showed up without any surprises through someone who has imported them in the past and probably will in the future.  In any event, as someone who used to work at EPA, I can assure you that the EPA smog cop car pulling up to your house with the lights flashing because you have a listeroid is vanishingly unlikely.

If EPA import rules suddenly start really applying to Listeroids, there's always individual import from Canada.  There is more than one Canadian vendor here, and a private owner importing for his own use is legal under the lifetime personal exemption clause for nearly anything including a Trabant.  Believe me, if they won't flag a Trabbie, they won't flag a Listeroid!

Parts interchangeability varies across brands and models.  Most seem to be mostly compatible.  Excessive compatibility isn't always a good thing - it looks like they've standardized on one rocker arm that isn't actually the right one for the 6/1 with IDI.  It's definitely worth your time and trouble to compare different brands and decide how much generic nature you want, and if there are any specific featuers like direct injection or a real oil pump that some engine have and others don't.  It appears that most of the engine manufacturers are buying their raw castings from a very few foundries, and are doing the finish and assembly themselves - rather like white box PC manufacturers.  This means that a Lovson and a Metro probably share a lot of castings, for example.

[bruss01]

First, thanks for the advice everyone!

Sure, you can order directly from India - ask Cujet how that works!  Seriously, you should look at a North American supplier (there are a few) who is willing to stand behind what he sells.  That way you have somone in the Country that you can call/email/bug if something is "not quite right".

Ok, I hear that, but at present I'm only aware of Scott in NY and someone in TX and someone in Canada who are importing these.  If I can find a nearby supplier on the West Coast it may be do-able, but truck shipping such a heavy unit halfway across the continent isn't cost effective.  We have an international port right here in Sacramento, in fact I remember hearing one person say theirs was shipped here.  Boat freight has got to be the most cost effective shipping method.  If I was certain of getting a unit that would only need to be disassembled, thoroughly cleaned and inspected and re-assembled, I'd gladly do the importation myself.  Provided, of course, that the supplier wouldn't simply take the money and run.

[bruss01]

Nothing says you can't have two 6/1s instead of a twin. 

Now THAT I'd like to see - but how do you keep the two gen units in phase and still maintain efficiency?  If they're not running identical, any differences would result in the two systems fighting each other to a certain amount, resulting in lost efficiency.  I'm thinking, for example, that one unit isn't enough to run my home AC, but two together could do it.  What do you think?

[Andre Blanchard]

So far I have seen no explanation of how to get a 700 lb chunk of cast iron off a trailer and into your garage... does everyone out there have a ton of burly friends, or maybe a forklift out back under a tarp?  I have neither.

Ha!  Neither have I.  I had the receiving guy at work fork the pallet in to my Corvair van, and it's been in there ever since.  I've spent the last two days thinking, fabricating and rigging something to get this thing out of the van (which has a 18" floor height, thankfully) and onto the garage floor so I can uncrate it.  I can tell you this - simple machines are your friends.  In my case, the pulley, the lever, and the roller are all going to get a workout tonight.  If you're applying direct muscle to a whole listeroid and you're not a weight lifter, you're probably going to hurt yourself.

Here is how I unloaded a 12/2 in less then 30 minutes by my self.

[Twinscrew]

So far I have seen no explanation of how to get a 700 lb chunk of cast iron off a trailer and into your garage...

Borrow an engine hoist and it's owner. A couple of 6 packs of good beer and a promise to fire it up once cleaned out and bolted down should do the trick.

[SCOTT]

bruss01

I could probably ship a 6/1 to the west coast for about $700.  But you are better off finding a dealer closer to you.  Give this guy a try: http://www.rockymountainpowersource.com/  he is in Colorado and has engines in port now in the process of clearing customs.

Good luck

Scott

[aqmxv]

Nothing says you can't have two 6/1s instead of a twin. 

Now THAT I'd like to see - but how do you keep the two gen units in phase and still maintain efficiency?  If they're not running identical, any differences would result in the two systems fighting each other to a certain amount, resulting in lost efficiency.  I'm thinking, for example, that one unit isn't enough to run my home AC, but two together could do it.  What do you think?

The easiest way would be to belt the second 6/1 to the first 6/1 with a toothed belt drive (you don't want the two engines changing phase all the time - your house would really start to dance).  Set them up so they fire evenly to each other, and drive the generator with the usual multigroove belt off the first 6/1.  Another option would be to mount the generator between the two 6/1s and run a toothed belt to each from the gen head.  This costs you more for pulleys and belts, but gains you flexibility - either 6/1 can be inop and you still can make 3.5 KW of power.

I've thought of making an L2-1 listeroid:  Take a 12/2 and set it up with valve and injection pump disables and a series/parallel valving arrangement for the water jackets.  Run on two lungs for max power, or disable one cylinder to air spring mode, route the hot water from the running cylinder to the nonrunning one to keep the rings happy, and make 6 HP almost as efficiently as a 6/1 would.  Almost certainly a lot more trouble than it's worth.

Of course, if we can get somebody to make us a 600 RPM generator head the whole multiple engines question gets a lot easier.

[bitsnpieces1]

  There has been some discussion about syncing two gen heads together around here.  you ought to be able to get some results under a search for synch (or however you spell it).  My suggestion is to run two seperate gen heads, each on it's own 6/1 and route loads as needed.  Another way would be to run two engines to one larger gen head.  Run one engine for lower power needs and clutch the other into drive when needed for higher output. 

[bruss01]

I could probably ship a 6/1 to the west coast for about $700.  But you are better off finding a dealer closer to you.  Give this guy a try: http://www.rockymountainpowersource.com/  he is in Colorado and has engines in port now in the process of clearing customs.

Scott, thanks for the feedback.  At half the cost of the engine, Shipping from the East Coast is prohibitive as I had guessed.

Colorado is still a long ways off.  I checked the site, and those look like good engines, but they are certainly pricey.  Almost 4 times the cost of the engine from India (I know, import duties, fees, etc) and that would be for one in the raw, where these have been gone over to some extent but still have to be shipped from CO.  Hmm... opinions anyone? What about kits?  As long as the parts are in good shape, and all present & accounted for, is this a viable route for the do-it-yourselfer who is handy with basic mechanical tools?

I was impressed with the video of the 6/1 freestanding on it's own on a concrete floor, running - obviously unsecured since it rotates about a quarter turn during the 30 seconds of video.  Did not look like a jackrabit on steroids to me.  When I heard that description, I had visions of a 900 lb machine coming 3 inches off the floor, a threat to everyone in the room. Did not seem as bad even as a washing machine with an unbalanced load. Looks like normal small engine behavior to me.  I'm a little less worried about the mounting base now.

[bbbuddy]

Hello all, yes I am a noob to both this forum and to the listeroid type of engine.  As a result I have a lot of questions that may bore some of you.  In fairness I have done quite a bit of research, but have not found what I need in one place and there are conflicting opinions and serious gaps.  I've ordered the utterpower CD, it's en-route (I hope).  My impression of George's web site is that he has a LOT of knowledge... and that presenting it in an organized, coherent fashion is not his strong suit. I'm hoping the CD will disprove that last assertion.  Still, I'm grateful that the information is presented AT ALL, even if one has to work for it a bit.

His cd is pretty much like the website.  Full of pearls, but you have to be willing to do some diving, haha.
George is very easy to talk to.  After you get the cd and go through it, esp. the file "Lister Longevity" read it again, make a list of questons, and give him a call.  

I'm interested in finding a reliable long-term power source for a remote property my wife and I are considering.  I discovered the lister/listeroid type of engine quite by accident on the internet, and instantly fell in love.  It appears simple, easy to work on, capable of lasting decades of daily use, and economical to power. Plus I just love the retro factor. Perfect.

Same as us

Especially, I've followed the trials and travails of hotater, whose machine seems

no, hotater's is not "the norm", I think he got his when importers were still at the beginning of the learning curve of who to order from, and how to get the Indians to upgrade their product for an American audience.

  So far I have seen no explanation of how to get a 700 lb chunk of cast iron off a trailer and into your garage... does everyone out there have a ton of burly friends, or maybe a forklift out back under a tarp?  I have neither.

My husband and I got ours off a pickup truck with a come-along, a couple of 2x8s, some cinder block, and a block and tackle.  Took longer to get set to do it than to do it.  
Word of warning, and don't take this the wrong way ok?  But if you aren't sure how to move a heavy load using simple tools, you may want a more user friendly genset...... some people just aren't mechanically inclined, some are. Only you know you.

I know... lot's of questions.  Maybe some of them will be answered by the CD, but I'm sure that a lot of them will not be. .

 Wait for the cd, you will feel "clearer" about it after some reading!  And talking to George.
And hey! You may feel an  uncontrollable urge to create your own power using a big hunka iron no matter what it takes.  This is good.
 

[xyzer]

"I was impressed with the video of the 6/1 freestanding on it's own on a concrete floor, running - obviously unsecured since it rotates about a quarter turn during the 30 seconds of video.  Did not look like a jackrabit on steroids to me.  When I heard that description, I had visions of a 900 lb machine coming 3 inches off the floor, a threat to everyone in the room. Did not seem as bad even as a washing machine with an unbalanced load. Looks like normal small engine behavior to me.  I'm a little less worried about the mounting base now."

bruss01.....

The CD will warn you about starting one without having it fastened down! It is the truth....there are some like you saw on the vidio, but some of them willl eat you for lunch if they get away on you! They can be ballanced so they don't need 15 yards of concrete. I  balanced mine to make it a portable gen-set......look here http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=599.0  Also I think Rockymountain sells a USA assembled engine all the bugs and sand taken care of, that will affect the price a bunch!