Author Topic: New waste oil Burner.  (Read 1738 times)

glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2020, 03:03:38 AM »
What about a blend with a small amount of gasoline?
Add a bit of RUG to the oil an see if it wicks up the rope.

That one I'll leave to you mate. :0)

Not a lot scares me but I see great potential danger in anything to do with burners and Petrol.  Might be fine for some time then conditions are right, the vapors accumulate and at very least you are going to need a change of underwear.  Probably be ok but for me it's an unknown with a lot of Potential problems so I prefer to stay clear.

If as I suspect your idea is to thin the oil, then I see benifit in that only using Kero or turps or the like that is a non aromatic material.

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One idea for a metal wick is the battery ground straps used in cars.
Some use a length of braided copper strap. Would make a beautiful green flame  ;D

That may work for dripping the fuel onto, not sure about a normal wicking action. Don't understand that to start with though but you would need a few layers of it to get the desired heat output I think.

I was thinking of stainless steel wool. It's much coarser than the normal stuff and might burn better by allowing airflow through it.  was also wondering about forcing a bit of air through it as well. Only problem I see is that it would most likely clag up after a while. Might be why the oil won't work with normal wicks.

I tried it with a kero heater and got the same result I subsequently found everyone else got. It burned the wick away very quickly and was not feasible from that POV.

I'm sure I have seen pictures of Old oil lamps and the wick is a tight fit into a hole which the fuel is  ABOVE so the oil runs down onto the wick.  as long as the wick was sealed well enough in the hole not to drip while burning and then inverted when not, should be OK.

veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2020, 06:31:54 PM »
 Ok .... the Blend idea is cancelled until further notice  ;D
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 03:29:50 PM by veggie »
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glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2020, 07:26:54 AM »

The idea of blending isn't bad, just the solvent you want to use to blend isn't something I'd be comfortable with myself.

It may be fine, I have never tried it outside a Vehicle. Used thousands of litres of Oil blended with petrol for that and it's my preferred way of using Veg.

My concern is the vapours coming out the oil, which I know they will do particularly in warm weather, and going Pop.  A fuel system in a car is relatively sealed and you want the fuel to go bang.  In a home fiddled burner that could have infinite variable's and probably not the vapor controls of a vehicle, I only know enough to know the great deal I am ignorant to may pose a substantial risk.

When playing with my burner I have had  several flameouts and then self relights. The vapors from the oil make a big enough whoomp, it' be very scared if I knew that was petrol Fumes. The different and widely spaced Boiling points are also a big concern. Petrol is around 90oC, Oil depending on type is around 250.  Means all the petrol has well turned to fumes long before the oil got near it and one will light a lot more readily than the other.

Maybe I'm just a wimp but petrol and mucking round with fire are a combination I just think is best avoided for me anyway.  Smarter people may be able to do it with no problem but I'm smart enough to realise I'm not  that smart.  :0).
It's a pity because  " Bulk" ( from the pump) kero is gone here. Haven't seen it in probably 10 years. Turps is stupid expensive and diesel is not a good thinning agent when you are trying to get back to the consistency you are starting off with. You don't make thin oil you make thick Diesel.

veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2020, 03:31:13 PM »

I agree, when playing with red hot housings the presence of gasoline is reason for concern.
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AdeV

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2020, 03:00:54 PM »
Hi Glort and all,

I've been discussing winter heating with my co-renters here at my workshop (= medium sized warehouse, about 300sq/m give or take, that's 3200sq/ft ish in USA money).... we have many gallons of waste engine oil (and some waste veg oil), and I'm pretty sure I can get a near unlimited supply of WVO from the many local garages around the area. So my thinking is, a nice big oil burner chucking out megawatts (ok, ok, kilowatts...) of heat, which we can use to at least take the frost off the roof in winter...

I've read this thread a couple of times, and I just wanted to make absolutely sure: There's nothing inside that elbow, except for the end of the fuel delivery line, is that right? No cup or plate or dish or bowl or other contrivance to hold the fire in? Literally just weld the elbow together, drill some air holes in the right place, stick a fuel line in through one of them; light it off and walk away (essentially)?

Apologies if I missed something obvious....

Does the air hole placement/pattern matter much? What about the size/number of holes in relation to the burner size? I presume there's a sweet spot, is it hard to find? 

How often does it need cleaning (i.e. after how many hours approx)? I realise there's probably a pile of variables which will affect that, but just a ballpark will be fine. Like, do I need to attend it daily or will weekly do?

What happens to Spencer's Ash? Does it not abrade the flue?  ;D ;D ;D :angel: [newer members may not get that reference...]

Thanks!

PS: This design looks a LOT easier than my plan of taking an old propane cylinder, cutting a door and a flue, and running a drip-fed bowl burner inside.
Cheers!
Ade.
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glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2020, 04:53:24 PM »
Hi Ade,


 So my thinking is, a nice big oil burner chucking out megawatts (ok, ok, kilowatts...) of heat,

Mate, I can most certainly guide you on setting up a Megawatt burner! That is NO trouble at all. I have built one atm I'm looking for a minimum of  2 Mw out of and I believe if I use the 4" dust extractor Blower I have with the 2HP motor can get 3 out of it.

For what you want, I'd be going BIG tube, 150MM or more if you can get it. 300Sqm in a shed which I take isn't real well sealed will take some power and I'd guess there will be people coming and going and maybe large doors. I'd be aiming at 3-5 Litres per hour depending on ambient temps.

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I've read this thread a couple of times, and I just wanted to make absolutely sure: There's nothing inside that elbow, except for the end of the fuel delivery line, is that right?

Yes, that is correct. I did put a couple of short Pieces of square tube in it the other week, just scrap I dropped in, to see if that would help with heat retention and transfer to the oil pool. I could tell no difference with them in or out.
Other than that test, the tube is completely hollow and what you see is what it is.


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Literally just weld the elbow together, drill some air holes in the right place, stick a fuel line in through one of them; light it off and walk away (essentially)?

Correct. I just eyeball everything I make and had to go measure what size the tube was when I wrote my original post.  Like everything else I build, I see what I have in the metal pile  that fits the idea in my head, I build the things by what looks right and the bastards work.  I laugh although get annoyed when all these people on YT ask for " Plans".  What Fking plans do you think I worked off when I built it? these people can see the things and want "Plans".  Fair enough ask if anything is inside as that's not visable and most burners of this type do but the things some people ask! Geez!

 I have been putting the fuel delivery pipe in the primary hole. It reduces the primary air/ burn rate a little but other than that, works fine wherever I put it.... Pretty much. I can go in the primary or secondary and does not seem to matter.... just keep the thing fairly level.
I Did one day push the burner up under the water tank un even but didn't discover it till the thing was lit and not running great.  All the fuel was running to the back and the pre heat of being under the primary air was not working. Moved the fuel pipe to the front and off she went.
I do think it runs best in the level position and you can put the fuel pipe front or back, makes no difference.  You could braze the thing into the side which would be neater  although might be better to have screw in so could be taken out if the end clagged up. 


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Apologies if I missed something obvious....

Nope, you got it. I find the things I confuse people with the most are the simplest things. Every one is always looking for more complexity!  :0)  In this case, you have it all worked out just fine.

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Does the air hole placement/pattern matter much? What about the size/number of holes in relation to the burner size? I presume there's a sweet spot, is it hard to find?

It needs a Hole at the front. I think. One in the horizontal section in the middle may work fine for all I know. I can see an advantage to that and feed the fuel from the front.  Haven't tried anything else  but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

It also needs holes on the upright section for the secondary air.   I put mine a little up from the bend and that seems to work well. I can see the Vapor coming off the oil real well through the holes and then catching alight.  When the burner is first fired there is no flame there but once the oil warms up, they catch and off they go.  The other day I put a little blow torch at the secondary holes and the  flame caught and noticeable  got the lower section running much harder.  At first the secondary would not self sustain but soon did when I took the little canister  torch away.  I think this speeds up lighting time a lot.

As far as size and placement of holes, like everything else I eyeballed it.  You need plenty. At a wild guess, I'd estimate the secondary holes add up to about 4 times the area of the primary hole.  I think they need to be small holes and set a little apart for Turbulence and to allow the flame to be a bit spread and mix the air well with the gas.   I just winged  the holes and placement on mine and it worked. I put in some more holes because it would run rich flat out and  it runs very clean now. _maybe- it could use one more hole but it's pretty close thats for sure.  If you put too many you could always weld them up again or block them off.

I'd say drill some holes, think plenty, fire it up, see how you go and if the thing runs dirty, put in some more holes and repeat till you have the thing tuned.


I put the second holes in the back of the thing. Couple of points on that.....

The side OPPOSITE the holes gets the hottest. The incoming air seems to push the flame back to that side and transfers the heat.  If you wanted this to radiate  if someone was standing in front of it, Turn the thing round so the holes are at the back or drill them at the back in the first place.  If however you want to put a fan behind it to better draw off the heat which I would certainly do, have the holes on the opposite side of the airflow. I would also put a 90o Pipe bend on the primary hole. I did that the other day when it was windy and it stabilised the flame a lot.  I think if a long bend was used that would give the airflow some Kinetic energy and would enhance performance that way.


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How often does it need cleaning (i.e. after how many hours approx)? I realise there's probably a pile of variables which will affect that, but just a ballpark will be fine. Like, do I need to attend it daily or will weekly do?

There are a LOT of variables but I can say the hotter and harder you run it, the less cleaning you will need.  I would suggest cleaning would be every morning before fire up.  What I would do on MkII would be make a Drawer as the burn chamber/ fuel holder that you could slide in from the next sized metal down or fab one up.  It would want to be fairly close fit so as not to leak too much primary air but you could reduce you primary air hole to compensate.  You would want the drawer to go to the very back of the thing as well so there was full flow to the secondarys and up the flue.

That would be your burn chamber, in the morning you would pull it out,  maybe give it a scrape with a paint scraper, put it in the burner again, light it up and all is good.  I would also suggest giving the thing a good hard full on run once a day to keep the flue clean. these things would soot that up eventually but having joins you can disassemble or cleanout ports like commercial burners have would make that an easy task once a month or once a season..... depending on how and what you burn.

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What happens to Spencer's Ash? Does it not abrade the flue?  ;D ;D ;D :angel: [newer members may not get that reference...]

Well a bit of abrasion in the flue would keep it clear of soot and probably not erode the flu pipe at all.  :0)

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PS: This design looks a LOT easier than my plan of taking an old propane cylinder, cutting a door and a flue, and running a drip-fed bowl burner inside.

It certainly would be!
The problem I see with burners all the time is people copy designs but they don't understand the principals at work.  Spray burners are a classic example. People think you have to spray the fuel but they don't understand what that actually does to make the fuel burn or how the same result can be achieved different ways.  Pot burners are the same. I have seen designs here and on YT and laughed straight away. So complex, so much time and materials to build and I can look at it and know it's going to have problems and why because I have wasted enough time on these things to understand what is going on with them and what is going to happen.

I don't know if anyone else has done this L design burner. I imagine someone has but I have not seen it. It was an original layout in my mind from looking at other pot designs and understanding what was going on and what was required to make it happen.  Heat the oil and have a way of regenerating the heat and then give it enough air to burn clean. You have to pull more oxygen in so just like a 1000 Yo wood fire, you want the Flue to draw to fan up the flames.  Simple.

The other thing to note with this type burner is the radiant output is low. The heat is all going up the flue so by extending that flue and having a fan on it to create the greatest temp differential between the air and the flue pipe will draw the greatest amount of energy off.
Highly efficient commercial gas heaters here have plastic flue Pipes and exhaust gas temps of Under 40oC .
An ultra clean burn and using the flue as one long heat exchanger is the way to pull real heat out these things.  I would try to put in a horizontal section of flue to make it easier to pull the heat from before it gets too High. Ideally you want the fan pushing the heat back down to the floor where the people are.


This burner works same exact thing with my forced air swirl Burners.  The rotation of the flame puts heat back into the burner and the fuel.  It also causes the vapor and air to mix ensuring a clean burn up to high firing rates and gives a wide turndown ratio because  the bulk of the air enters above the oil  pool.  That stops it over cooling and mixes the vapors not the liquid. By extending the air pipe into the burn chamber as deeply as possible, it pre heats the AIR, not the fuel as everyone seems obsessed with and the fuel is then phase changed as well so you have part burning before it even leaves the air pipe. IMHO compressed air burners are for people  that don't know how to engineer a proper burner. They are too energy input intensive, need way too much equipment to make them run and as everyone seems to use commercial nozzles, they are way too expensive and that's not even including the cost of the compressor and the power used.

I can make bigger burners with scrap and an old car vent blower that seem to have less trouble than the commercial ones.
If you understand the principal you can understand what you do and don't need to make them work.   :0)

IF there is anything else you like to know, fire away!  :0)

mike90045

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2020, 05:42:03 AM »
What about using a plumbing Tee instead of an elbow and voila, you have a cleanout at the bottom ?
 
Would stainless take the heat, or does it need steel parts ?

glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2020, 08:52:19 AM »

That is a great idea!
 
I don't think the T  with the cleanout at the bottom would be ideal but if it were  rotated  Horizontal with the 2 ends level and the single side vertical, that would be perfect as you could then get to the burner section which is where the majority of the buildup will be.
The other thing is the oil would pool in the lower T and I think would boil and sludge up badly there. I don't think it would get enough heat to burn well as the flame front would be going over the top not impinging the oil itself.

You can buy threaded end caps in reasonable sizes as well as plugs, I don't know if you can buy threaded end Pieced of pipe but you could certainly have them threaded.  One could buy a 2 or 4" nipple to weld that onto the end for a removable plug for a clean out. May not even need the T. Iif you had a threaded cap or plug you could just unscrew,just use an elbow and have the cap or plug at the end of the burner section. Remove that and you have a clear shot to the end of the elbow to the riser section which one could make a little tool to pull the crud out with.  clean it out, replace the cap or plug, perfect!

I did think about a T shaped burner. Primary air hole at each end and the flue in the middle. Can't think of any advantages other than looking different though. The end determining factor to heat output is well and truly the secondary holes and the size of the flue. Big primary's just make for big smoke and soot and inefficiency without the ability to have big enough secondarys and flue.

 I don't see the actual Pipe being square or round being an issue and in round Pipe you could get an elbow ( or a T)  and weld the burner section and the riser to that.  Simpler still!  One could probably use square section and for the end plate of the burner section just weld on a Nipple and a plug for the clean out. Offset the Nipple so it overlaps at the bottom of the square section so there is no lip and you can pull the crud straight out at the bottom. That would be a great modification for that I have. Just need a 2-3" Nipple and a plug. Easy!

I think the square section is cheaper here than pipe but what you spend on materials you probably save in time and fuss and certainly the convenience aspect of a Cap or plug would be well worth saving mucking round making a slide out. I would also tap the Plug or cap and put in a compression fitting for the fuel line which would make that neater and more professional although no reason it couldn't go in the side or the top.

On the last burn I did I ran the copper end of the fuel line along the top of the burner to pre heat the oil a little. I doubt it did much but may have retained a little heat. You don't want to boil the oil in the fuel line because it will carbon up.  Made coils where I blew the flame back into in early burner attempts and it worked well for a while till the coil carboned up internally and stopped the fuel flow all together. Would work well with  Diesel or Bio or obviously kero as that is how a lot of those stoves and blow lamps work but it's a no go for oil.

As for stainless or steel, Did you mean Copper for one of those? Far as I am aware Stainless is more heat tolerant than ordinary steel.
I don't see why Copper wouldn't work and I don't think this setup would generate enough heat to worry it.  It would be ideal in the burner section as it would put the best heat possible back onto the oil.  I don't know if copper is available threaded but I would assume there are end caps and threaded nipples available.  You could just braze or TIG these on and I know you can get elbows and threaded flanges in copper.
Copper is VERY pricey so a copper burner section mated to a steel  flue/ riser would work fine.

Using Pipe, this thing could possibly be screwed together depending what is available in threaded sections in steel.

Great suggestion!