Author Topic: New waste oil Burner.  (Read 1739 times)

glort

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New waste oil Burner.
« on: June 09, 2020, 06:24:41 AM »
I have built a LOT of oil burners over the years ( although not too many recently)  but they have all been in the multi Hundred KW range.  My " small" ones do 200 Kw and the biggest to date puts out over 1100 Kw.  Built one a few weeks ago I haven't fired yet that I'm aiming for a Minimum of 2000Kw and hopefully if I can get enough air into the thing ( fuel won't be a problem, I Might get 3000 Kw or above.

I fired up an old burner the other day for the first time since I have been here. Used a jumping castle blower and a car fuel pump to push the fuel in fast enough. The thing howls like a jet engine afterburner and is starting to get near supersonic.You can hear the thing just shredding the air.  I did that once before with another setup and got a Mach Diamond which was pretty unexpected but got the Vid showing it.
Neighbours Really got a new insight to the nutter living next door as if all the solar wasn't enough. I wish I could get hold of a Blower that did a couple of PSI. Could really do some damage with that!

For this latest application I need something completely opposite and as small as I can imagine working properly. I am wanting to make something to heat the house using waste veg oil to heat a gas water heater and want something to do about 10Kwh.  500Kw burner is easy, I was thinking about a 5Kw burner but gave up on that idea as just too hard. 1L an hour is about the best I think I'll get without too much trouble. I want to use the burner to heat a ( previously) gas fired water heater I have removed the burner from. On gas it does a bit over 5 Kwh input but I think there may be a bit of margin on that but hard to say what the limitations are.

Normally all my burners are forced air and I was thinking to use a small 12V bilge blower for the little burner but that still seemed a bit over kill. I was going through all the variations in my head and pulled out a note book I write my hair brained ideas in and re discovered my "L " Burner design.
This would be a draft type burner and I could pull the heat through the gas water heater as they have a flue/ HE right up the middle  which I could add to for more draft if needed.

I have trouble getting things small in my mind so I got a bit of 75mm Sq Tube, cut a wedge out with the plasma cutter to bend it to a Right angle L shape and MIG'ed it back together closing off the open end on the horizontal Burner section.
There is a primary air hole in the top of the horizontal leg and cut some holes with the plasma in the upright section for secondary air.  Couple of wide legs for stability and a bit of 4" pipe about 1.5M long for a flue for testing purposes.   Very simple.

Put in a bit of oil and some diesel soaked paper towel, lit it and off it went no trouble. First thing is in this config it puts out a LOT more heat than 10 Kw.Over shot there by a wide margin but It seems I can pull the thing down to somewhere in the ball park.  Maybe something 30-40mm tube would do 10 Kw but that would be tiny and hard to imagine working at all. Concept would be the same so spose it would.

I can take the 3/4" Primary air hole down to about 1/2" which seems to be the sweet spot as it's set up now.  Running the thing flat out it roars, smokes a bit from lack of secondary air and glows red the first 45Cm up the flue. The heat radiated is very good for an outdoor heater. Could also be used with a variety OF HE's for water and Ducted air heating.

I brought it down on the back verandah last night and set it up after the first burn and the thing throws good heat  for that application.  Mrs came out and had a look and then brought out the stew she made for dinner and we sat on the verandah and ate dinner by the fire.  Amazing how nice the most simple of pleasures can be.
This does roar a little but nothing like a force fed burner even on low heat. If the chimney was fully ducted above the roof line, it would be very much quieter.

I'm feeding the thing with a Pulse pump because although everyone wants simple with gravity feed, it's more of a pain in the arse and inconsistent for long burns than what it is worth. Oil tank warms up and oil changes viscosity, level in tank drops, oil layers out....  You have to adjust the things constantly. Pulse pump, same volume every time and you can set the timing and it will do the same output all day.... or night. I'll put this on a simple timer or an arduino to pulse the pump for say a second every 15 or whatever seconds to get the output to as close to it as I want.

The output will change once I put the water heater on the thing as it has a smaller diameter through the middle and I expect cooling the output will also diminish the draft.  Might be good this is a bit over built as I expect inefficiency of course.

I haven't measured the KW output on this but it can easily do 10kw and I suspect maybe 40-50. Definitely could do more with some extra secondary air holes and maybe a larger primary air inlet. If this was in a garage it would certainly put out good heat especial with a fan blowing on the back  to pull more heat from it by creating a greater temp Differential with the surrounding air.  The addition of something like an old 9 Kg gas Cylinder on top of the burner itself which I will look at for the verandah heater, would also increase surface area and more energy could be bled from it. I'll do a reverse internal flue for that so the heat is made to move around not just go straight up and out.

I have some larger tube up the back and the mrs now wants me to build one of these for the Verandah. I'm thinking I can up size the thing a bit to 100mm tube and put it in a 44 gallon drum as a back reflector and blow the bilge fan from the back to push more warm air forward. With a bigger tube the thing would also give a useful area as a heating surface and could have a kettle sitting on it or even cook on the thing.

I'm in about 17 Minds as to how I might do this home oil burning heater but this is a first idea I want to explore. This one is pretty much a more constant burn with a water reserve to store energy for the Night and morning without letting the burner run all the time.
I could also do a more powerful conventional burner and get a couple of 400L electric water heaters as storage and heat them in batch mode and use the stored heat.
I can also make up a Tube in tube HE and use that with the draft burner and just blow air through that and duct it into the house.  Easier and simpler but no storage of heat unless I run a wet back as well and all the plumbing which means I may as well stick with the water system.

I have also got a spa recently and the heater in that takes all day literally to heat the 2000L of water that holds so I'll be doing a Veg oil heater for that anyway of at least 100Kw to get the thing warm in a reasonable time.   Might be easier to heat that in batch mode and use the heat from that for the house as well. Even just a 40o temp difference ( Don't think I can go too hot without damaging the shell in the spa) will give about 90Kwh although I don't think the insulation on the spa is great on the bottom even if it does have a thick cover.  Then again, Free fuel, efficiency is not particularly Critical.

I have done a draft burner before years ago using an old cooking pot and a lid which worked well but this one I am particularly impressed with. Was simple and quick to build and has Miles of potential in various applications.  The other thing I thought of was  "J"  Burner.  Bit of ( round) tube bent  to form a J shape and put oil in the bottom and let the draft work on that.  Could be done in 3" exhaust pipe and bent up by a muffler shop in one piece.  Drill some secondary holes and that's it. Might have to do a YT vid on that for all the non hands on people. :0)

I'll put up some pics when my website host comes back up. Thought it was just my site but the host seems down as well.
Hope it hasn't been taken off line in the US riots.

glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2020, 11:40:17 AM »



mikenash

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2020, 09:26:40 AM »
Glort, is the oil dripping onto anything in there? Or just onto the "floor" of that bit of 75X75 SHS?

Do you reckon the length of the bottom leg is proportional in any way to the amount of "draft"?  I would guess the length of flue would be - but perhaps the same is true of the intake?

Cheers

dax021

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2020, 03:54:43 PM »
I was thinking pretty much the same thoughts.  Also what do you think about using a 75mm pipe instead, with a gate valve on the horizontal end to regulate air flow?

veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2020, 04:01:50 PM »
I believe the standard design is to drip the oi into a burn pot.
Like the bottom cut off a soup can (but heavier gauge metal).

Glort, I will be watching your project intently. I was also thinking of building a mini oil burner for greenhouse heating.
In my case a 2kw (6830 btu) version would be perfect.

Carry on my friend !  :D
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glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2020, 04:04:05 PM »
Today I set the burner up with a timer on the fuel pump.
Fired the thing up, got it running rich so I knew where it was and then guesstimated a fuelling on/off rate on the timer. Got it spot on first time and every time.  There is quite a range of adjustment.  I can get it glowing red and rolling coal or just puttering along with just enough heat to keep the cats happy at close range. the thing burns TOTALLY clean over a wide range. You can always tell when you have the combustion right, the only thing one can detect from the flue gasses is the cosy smell of warm air.

Everyone wants to use gravity drip feed but I have given up on that. I had this running over 4 Hours today and adjusting the timer I could put it at what ever heat level I wanted and walk away and knew there would be no problems and it was not going to run away or die out. They thing uses next to no power. I had the pump running 8 sec a minute on high and got it down to 2 sec a min for low. I think the pump uses about 2.5A when it's running so a small 7Ah battery could power the thing all night and top it off and run it from a small solar panel during the day.

I had it running again tonight and the Mrs came out again and sat and we talked for some time.  Thing seems to be a calming influence and an asset to discussions.  She has decided that one is required for the verandah, Just have to make up a bod to hide the oil drum and battery and tidy up the oil feed pipe. Said I could do one in copper, run it out the side and to the back so it would be barely seen and put a reflector behind it to redirect the heat forward.  I'll also drill some more secondary air holes so I can crank it harder and it will still run clean.

There are several ways the thing could also be adapted to a shed heater. It could be set up with an air to air HE for ducted hot air, an air to water HE or a space heater with a large radiant surface. Would also be ideal for something where a thermal mass was heated up with the flue gasses directed through that so there was a soft, radiant heat that was retained for thermal stability of the room.

I also thought this would be a great design for an oil Fired BBQ, run some channel under some plate or duct it into a bit of pipe under the plate and out for a target type hotplate like is popular in commercial kitchens.

The drum of oil I was using has got a lot of water in it which I discovered when I pushed the oil pickup tube down in the tank. I was surprised at the amount of hissing and flaring that was going on with the primary combustion going out repeatedly but then re lighting.  Going by the noise and spitting, there was a lot of water in that oil but the thing kept on burning. I designed this to have plenty of heat retention for low power operation and looks like it worked and worked well.

There are a lot of variations that can be done with this design as long as the basic principals are adhered to. 
Can also be easily tweaked for various uses as far as the burning process goes and what you want to do with the heat and where it goes.



I was thinking of a gate valve for the airflow. I think it is a bit over kill though. I'll probably just get a bit of metal and make a screw hinge so it can come across and block the inlet however much I want. The output is also very controllable with the fuelling and will burn lean quite happily.  Air adjustment is not at all critical.
Pipe or sqtune will make not difference, Use what you have!. If you need less heat, go to 50MM. If you want more go to 100.

glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 04:14:37 PM »
I believe the standard design is to drip the oi into a burn pot.
Like the bottom cut off a soup can (but heavier gauge metal).

Yes, I have done draft burners out of pots before but this is much more versatile. It's easier to design in heat retention for low power operation.

Quote
Glort, I will be watching your project intently. I was also thinking of building a mini oil burner for greenhouse heating.
In my case a 2kw (6830 btu) version would be perfect.

Something out of 40 or 50mm tube may work but at 2 Kw you are only burning 200Ml of oil an hour. That's like a big oil lamp!
For that sort of output myself I'd be looking at going another way.  Do a decent power burn that's much easier to manage like say 20Kwand store the heat in a water heater and bleed off as needed. Thermostat control would be very easy  to do a solar water heating pump and a fan to kick in when needed.  Might even thermo Syphon through the radiator.

200l of water heated to 80oC and taken down to 20oC is about 14 KWh of heat energy.  At 2 KW hr, that's say 6 hours heating.  Double the water and you have plenty of heating reserve.
Other way would be a larger heater and just have the thermostat Dump excess heat out the greenhouse.  Free fuel so why worry?

I might try a really small heater. Could go miniature in 30mm Box.  I can't see why it wouldn't work although the fuel metering will need to get precise.


veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2020, 04:17:07 PM »

You say that a Bilge Blower might work for smaller units.
I have a 12vdc blower that might work for mine.
Is this what you had in mind?
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veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 04:22:25 PM »

Being that I have never built one before I decided to go very small.
A tiny unit should be easier to build for me.
I was thinking of using 2" or 3" diameter thread pipe and fittings, but maybe I can locate some square tubing.
Lots to think about.
I like your idea of building it slightly larger and then storing the heat. But that involves more piping and pumps and storage and heat exchange.
For the first one I would like 2kw - 4kw that I can tinker and perfect.
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- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 04:24:34 PM »
GLORT:  Yes, I have done draft burners out of pots before but this is much more versatile. It's easier to design in heat retention for low power operation.

So you don't have a burn pot?
Does your little pump supply a spray nozzle? or does it drip into a burner of some sort?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 07:01:38 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2020, 04:40:59 PM »
This is an interesting design using mostly standard pipe fittings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t38BwALhPk
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
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glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2020, 01:03:17 AM »

You say that a Bilge Blower might work for smaller units.
I have a 12vdc blower that might work for mine.
Is this what you had in mind?

First of all, what design are you trying to make?
If you are doing a draft burner, you don't need a blower. If you do want to do a forced air Version, that is a fan, not a blower. Not trying to be a pedantic bastard but there IS a difference. A Fan will move a volume of air but with no pressure to speak of. A blower ( even little toy ones)  Will move less air but with some ( small) Pressure.  It's important because a fan won't push air down a pipe well. A blower will do it a lot better.  Blowers are generally impeller or scroll designs not a fan blade.  My first decent burner used a car AC/ demister blower and that worked well.

If you only want  2-5 even KW, I would do a draft type.  A forced air will be Very critical IMHO. Not saying it can't be done, just I believe a draft type will be easier for what you want.

This is the Blower i use. as you can see in the vid, it's capable of supplying a lot more air than 2-3 Kw requires.
I have thought about necking  it down to a 1" Pipe and making a vertical burner out of heavy gauge metal to retain the heat the same as I used in this design.  I would make the burner itself Fairly deep so the air inlet extended down and would pre heat. the oil is fed in the air pipe and when these are running well you get vapor coming out which ignites as soon as it leaves the air Pipe so would do will at low output. One would of course have to throttle the air right down so there was minimal excess air.  The air cools the oil so it needs to match the fuel burn so as not to over cool.
You can get a lot of variation in output with fuel on a large burner but as you get to lesser outputs the margin of course gets a lot finer.


Yes a heat store does require more " complexity" But I believe gives more benefit.  It's like a car. You can have a model T that will get you places, eventually.  You can't tow with it, you have to get out and start the engine by hand, set the timing, Prime the oil, etc.
A modern car has more complexity like high and low beam headlights, turn the key to activate the starter motor, has a Demister, a Distributor or computer that does the timing, a water pump so the engine can work harder and not over heat, a  cabin Heater, 4 wheel Disk brakes with anti lock, ..... and so it goes. Much more complicated but you get a lot of benefits.
Trick is not to build something like a damn Mercedes that every time I get in the thing I feel intimidated even after 3 years with all the gadgets etc that don't really add much to the experience over my much cheaper cars.

That said, You want this for a greenhouse  so you can keep it simple. Last year for my greenhouse I just had a 100L of water in a drum heated by an element connected to solar panels.  It radiated the heat very well and the plants were still at 15oC even when the outside temp was -5.

Quote
Being that I have never built one before I decided to go very small.

IMHO, going very small is MUCH harder than doing a 200KW burner.

The problem with low output burners gets to 2 Things, Fuel metering and heat retention. I'm sure both can be over come, maybe it's just that I have put a lot more effort into doing things for heating swimming pools ( effectively) and melting metal. I have usually ridiculously overpowered furnaces as well but going small -I- see as a bigger Challenge.

For me, Building a 30Kw Burner that I could batch fire would be a lot easier than building a burner that did say 3 KW constant.
I have thought of Building one of these burners and use an Old 60-100L Gas tank and weld the flue right through the centre and fill the thing with water. Fire the Burner, get the water up to temp and shut down. I would circulate the water but for your purpose,  You could just have the tank, maybe partially insulated  to reduce the heat radiation and make it last longer , and have it sit there.  Add a Circulation air fan to the green house to keep the air temp even same as they have in commercial greenhouses and have another fan on a thermostat blowing on the tank. When the temp drops, fan comes on, blows the warm air off the tank faster and heats the space.
No pumps or radiator required, just a small fan and an $8 Thermostat board off Scambay.

You could also just get a water heater tank I spose and partially peel the insulation off.  Those tanks are pretty thin and can be hard to weld as all but you probably have a lot better welding skills than I. Light gauge metal and I don't work well together. Also some water tanks are Vitreous lined so that can add complication.  Gas heated tanks already have the flue through the Middle so if you have them where you are that makes it easier still. Just remove some of the insulation from the top, put on a header tank  for the water to keep the main tank full and eliminate pressurisation and you are there.

No idea what you are growing but last year with my little greenhouse I discovered that the plants I was growing ( Tomatoes, cucumber various Veges and a bunch of hedge cuttings) didn't care about the temp. I had it up to 40 oC regularly in there  and as long as the HUMIDITY was high, they were really happy.  The heat without the Humidity was a very different thing.  Don't know what the books say, haven't read up on them but from what I saw, temp control wasn't very critical at all. I tried to keep them above 15 because below 12oC they stop Photosynthesis apparently but they did well much warmer as long as the humidity was high. With the open tank I had with just a bit of a shelf on the top which was far from airtight, that wasn't a problem at all.  When the weather warmed up and I took the tank out and the sun got up to even 35 with no added humidity, the plants wilted and didn't like it one bit.

I lost a few when it did warm up which pissed me off. Managed to keep summer plants thriving through the sub freezing temps of winter and lost them in much warmer weather and at lesser temps than the greenhouse had been at because I removed the Humidity.
A nasty trap for the new players in the game.

A burner in the greenhouse if you have one big enough partially venting into the greenhouse will also increase the CO2 Levels which all commercial greenhouses do to aid plant growth.  Like putting a human patient on Oxygen.



3kw on oil is 5Ml a minute. One could use a pump through a fine orifice like a MIG Tip to stop the flow rate down but one would also want a filter on the inlet because it's easy to block small passages.  You also need to be VERY conscious  of keeping the thing hot so the oil will phase change to a gas so it can burn.


No, I only use a nozzle on one of my designs, the spray burner which I don't like. Every thing else just comes out the pipe and straight into the burner. My burners work on heat retention in the burner itself to create the phase change of the oil. Spray Burners work on reducing the droplet size to make the oil easier to phase change just in the hot atmosphere.


Nobox Bob Drives me insane with his Vids. There is SO much incorrect information in them I have to stop watching at times. Makes me want to scream at what he goes on with which is so much BS. The guy talks like a professor but literally can't spell basic words and after all this time, he STILL does not really get the principals of what is involved even though he used to ask me endless questions about my vids.

He likes the spray type Burners which I think are a total wank TBH. Not just his but all of them.  Talking about complexity, you need to make or buy expensive Nozzles and run a compressor, ( he just bought some huge petrol powered thing and still runs out of air)  and put all this energy in to making a fire.  I can make just as big or bigger output that going by his vids, will burn a lot cleaner and more reliably and uses a fraction of the power input and certainly a fraction of the cost of equipment with an old Blower over a big compressor.

I built a spray Burner which I believe he copied But I saw little advantage with it. Mine didn't even use the special and problematic air/ Fuel Nozzle, I just built mine out of std Copper Fittings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SXKMRSIyPU&t=1s

This Vid shows the screw together Plumbing parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW1odjaM8w8

I might do another spray Burner if I get enthused enough to get back into this now I'm not feeling as depressed  for the moment anyway and might be able to do something entertaining again but I will do it with high pressure fuel not compressed air.  That way you run a pump and maybe a blower and that is it. No compressor thumping away and using a fortune in power. I think the fuel spray could be set up to induce enough draft air anyway.

AdeV

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2020, 09:23:23 AM »
Seems to me diesel fuel injectors could be used to provide a high pressure spray for a relatively moderate power input. Snag one from an old diesel car from a local scrapyard, drive it with an electric motor instead of the engine, and arrange the injectors/pipes to taste in your burner module. Sure, it'd pulse, unless you spun the pump fast enough that the oil from the previous injector was only just finishing its burn before the next injection.
Cheers!
Ade.
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glort

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2020, 01:52:48 PM »

I have thought of using a diesel injector/ Pump. Got a set of injectors and an IP from an OM 617 Up the back.  An injector pump takes about 2 Hp to turn over and even slowed  will take at least 1 HP.
I have wondered how an injector would go when driven from a power steering pump. Only about 1000 PSI instead of 20, 000 but don't need Micro fine mist for this like in an engine. The oil won't have to in effect spontaneously combust, the burn chamber will be plenty hot already.

Might be possible to just use the injector nozzle and remove the internal springs so it sprays continually, not cycles.
If one used an injector out of something like a China diesel with low flow rate, may be possible to get a low enough output.

veggie

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Re: New waste oil Burner.
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2020, 09:07:45 PM »
Glort,
In your first video your burner tube was quite long compared to many others on the net.
I think this is actually a benefit because the fuel burns more completely while contained.
If the tube were to be used for space heating it would make sense to make the tube even longer and have a fully burned exhaust exit the end.
One idea is to run a tube the full length of a shed or garage and exit out the wall with a screen and rain cap.
Basically a tube type ifrared heater.
Nice work !
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw