what are the issues and problems with the listeroids

[mobile_bob]

aside from the issues of sand, grit and sloppy assy what other issues need attention

so far we have determined the following to be issues of concern, and possible corrections have been discussed

1. big end oiling issues,, the thinking is to go with a tube dipper, possible changes to the brg shells etc..

2. head gskt leakage,,, possible counter bore issues, head surface/flat,  better gskts, etc.

3. rocker shaft and geometry...  we have beat that one to death,, there are possible cures by means of a different rocker stand, rocker shaft, rockers, corrections to the geometry, and yes even roller tips

4. idler issues,,, steel , brass, bronze,, have been discussed as well as chain drives

5. temperature control, the use of thermostats, bypass thermostat housings etc...

6. oil filtration... the use of a filter in the side cover to trap stuff, magnets.. what else?

7. balance issues,, where are we with this one.

8. mounting issues,, the use of a ton of concrete in the base seems to be the way to go

9. air filteration, the use of paper vs oil bath...

10. exhaust . mufflers, piping... what else?

what else is at issue? and what are the theories and corrective measures?

lets flesh this out!

i wanna know,, and i am sure others do too

bob g

[Procrustes]

Tappets that don't spin -- machine tappet surfaces level, check that cam lobes contact off center

Crankcase reed valve rendered inoperative by paint.

Crappy fuel lines -- some fracture, some swelled by diesel.

[rjcroc]

I believe there were some cases of the valve stem caps not being hardened, and a post about how to harden them. heat, drop in trans fluid?

Rick

[mobile_bob]

i have an old book outlining how valve stem ends are hardened, not sure about the caps, as i have not held one in my hand.

the valves are stood up in the bottom of a pan, fill with water up to just over the stem top, about 1/8" above
using an oxy/acet torch the end is heated dull red, the torch flame will displace the water, when the flame is removed the water will rush back over and quench the end of the valve.

this method will provide approx 1/16 of hard face without hardening the rest of the stem or distorting it.

my bet is the caps can be done the same way, then reground and polished smooth.

anyway that is how i would do it

bob g

[Twinscrew]

7. balance issues,, where are we with this one.

1) Dynamic balance flywheels on both singles and twins. gpkull did this on his twin and his fathers single on a large truck wheel balancer. He achieved virtually zero imbalance with stick on weights. Should be no more cost than standard wheel balance.
2) Weight match pistons, con rods, and crankshaft counterweights in twins. Remove material from non-critical areas.
3) Static or dynamic balance of piston & con rod to crankshaft.

[slowspeed1953]

i have an old book outlining how valve stem ends are hardened, not sure about the caps, as i have not held one in my hand.

the valves are stood up in the bottom of a pan, fill with water up to just over the stem top, about 1/8" above
using an oxy/acet torch the end is heated dull red, the torch flame will displace the water, when the flame is removed the water will rush back over and quench the end of the valve.

this method will provide approx 1/16 of hard face without hardening the rest of the stem or distorting it.

my bet is the caps can be done the same way, then reground and polished smooth.

anyway that is how i would do it

bob g

Neat post Bob!

Peace&Love , Darren

[cujet]

Add failing oil pumps, (Rocketboy's oil pump spring broke)

Snapped camshafts.

Rapid valve and guide wear.

Some have seen rapid ring and cylinder wear.

[Jim Mc]

Issues?  For me the bottom line is this:  There is no well-established distribution network for these engines in North America.  Sure, anybody can order a container load or three, but that's not a long-standing relationship, and the manufacturer knows this.  There's no promise or expectation of future orders, and no way to weed out a manucfacturer selling crap from the rest.  A 'guarantee' is an interesting concept on an engine that costs as much or more to ship as its value.

As much as I wish it weren't true, and that it really was possible to buy a real "old time" RA Lister for under $1k, it just ain't so.

In the end, I'm afraid we'll mostly realize that we're just polishing a turd.

[cujet]

Jim Mc, Amen!

You got it!

But my pig has lipstick on it and it is looking good.

Chris

[mobile_bob]

well i like my turd all the same!

and until i can figure how to get another stationary engine, that weighs 1300 lbs, makes 25 hp at 1000 rpm i will remain likeing this one.

Jim you seem to have a dim view of these engines.... thats a shame.

oh well, to each his own,, call me ignorant,, but remember sometimes ignorant is bliss!

i am more convinced today than i was a month ago in the viability of these engines, working with you guys to pencil out issues and work out solutions has led me to the conclusion that they are a good value.

as i have said before, you can't make up the molds and cast the parts in this country for anywhere near what you can buy one for,, let alone the machining,,, machining that may be lacking a bit,,, but pretty close, certainly close enough to finish properly with blueprinting.

i have seen 8v71 detroits that would not run dependably after a shoddy overhaul, as well as ones that ran like a watch with close attention to detail.

oh btw,,, this thread was started by me, to try and work out a list of issues and develop solutions,, not beat them down.
there are other threads for that. or .. go start your own thread... stop raining on my parade.

so far to date i have not heard of serious flaws in these engines,,, such as

broken crankshafts
broken blocks
broken pistons
broked connecting rods
or for that matter any other serious defects that kill engines dead...

what i do see are a plethora of minor issues that could be corrected with proper procedure and careful though and assembly

how about this....
you tell me,, what other engine can i buy for 1500 to 2000 dollars that will fit the bill, develop the power at the low rpm?
that doesnt cost a small ransom for overhaul parts?  because it too will need repairs and overhaul too.

perhaps i come from a different viewpoint than others, that is my background in medium and hd diesel engines,,, they all have their issues,, none are perfect,,, they all have their comprimises.... i defy you to tell me differently.

i have overhauled virtually every US manufactured diesel engine that has been in production over the last 50 years,, and they all have their own set of problems, weaknesses etc.. from leaks, oil and water, hard starting, crankshaft failures, brg failures, starting problems, smoking etc... they all do! maybe not all of the problems but certainly have some of each in each family of engine.

so lets stay on task,,, identify problems and figure out solutions.

bob g

[Jim Mc]

...Jim you seem to have a dim view of these engines.... thats a shame.

No more a shame than one deluded by the legendary reliability of the Lister, thinking a Listeroid is similar, and just needing some of the "minor issues" addressed.

If I was considering running one of these for thousands of hours a year, I'd want to see established reliability in other engines of the same make and model.  But that's me.  Apparently you make a living overhauling Diesel engines, and hopefully it's work you love.  Because with a barn full of Listeroids slated for off-grid use, you're gonna have lots of chances to keep in practice...

[fuddyduddy]

Yup, you've got it right Jim,
About 100 people post here regularly, and about 2,000 are running the Lister(oids)  REGULARLY, in the USA without problems, so your horse sh**  talk is just that, a bunch of crap.

Care to respond, craphead?

[mobile_bob]

Jim

listen i dont know you from adam,,, and yes i have rebuilt a butt load of engines,,, and no i dont particularly like doing it anymore.

pull up a chair and listen,, i will try to explain this in terms that are easily understood.

1. a listeroid is at least 95% there,,, in that i mean the first 95% of the work has been done.

2. no reasonable thinking individual would look at one of these engines as perfect out of the crate, every time

3.  probably a good portion of these engine run just fine,, even with leaks, non rotating lifters, sand in the sump , forever!
     don't even argue this point with me,,, i have seen stuff run that would make the worst listeroid look like  a rolex.

4. for the small percentage that have serious faults,,, most reasonalbly informed folks accept the engine as a kit and just tear them down
correct the defects and put them to work,, case closed

5. then there are those like me,, who look at them as a kit right out of the crate, and i don't much care who built it or who sold it,

6.  there is no way you will ever convince me that i cannot take one of these engines, disassemble it, clean and inspect it, blueprint it
reassemble it and make it run 10's of thousands of hours, with only routine maintenance.

i realize that i probably am in the upper few percent of folks here that have not only the years experience, the tooling, knowlege, and time to
actually blueprint one of these engines.

it would appear to me you have none of these qualities..  the finest diesel mechanic's i have worked with would not take your position on these engines
but would look at them as one that just needed to be overhauled,, bring it up to spec's and run it.

now if you can show me evidence of serious underlieing faults, such as i alluded to earlier, broken crankshafts, buckled rods, broken piston, exploded flywheels (that did so from faulty castings) or the like then i will listen,,, until then you aint got much to say.

again i will ask,,, show me a suitable alternative engine,  one that runs between 650-1000 rpm, 6 to 25 hp, that will burn damn near any thing flammable, and run for nearly 7000 hrs with the wrong oil, a hand full of sand, advanced timeing,, and a few other problems,,

i will save you the trouble,, it aint gonna happen

a cummins will be dusted in 100 hrs. with only 4 fluid ounces of dust in the oil

a detroit will die a horrible death with half that amount down the intake in an 8 hr shift

how do i know,, i have seen it, and the manufactures have ran the test on dyno's

they cant handle powdery dust,,, dont even think about sand...

oh and btw,,, did hotater engine die at 7000 hrs?  no it was knocking and he investigated

you come back tomorrow and do a better job of presenting your case agains the engine,, better yet give us a solution
give us an alternative

bob g

[dkwflight]

Hi
I don't think the Lister, as built, had any serious faults. It was ment to be a work horse engine. with some care and attention they could and did last many thousands of hours.
They were ment to be a "Hands on" engine. If for instance the lifters and push rods were enclosed would they get the ocassional attention they need? True if they were enclosed they  would not need attention as often.
The engineers of the day certainly knew how to build for a purpose and to a budget. Look at the airplane and race engines of the day. When the budget allowed they could turn out jewels.
The lister CS was ment to be an affordable engine for use were ever it was needed.
The Indian copies are another item altogether. When you have an engine from a qualitiy builder, the cleanlyness and tolerances in assy. are good. I believe if you accept that they should be a kit engine and blue print them you can  get similar lifetime usage out of them.
In my case only the periferal accesseries were not up to as high a standard as the rest of the engine. The flanges, all of them were crudly made and barely usable. But I was able to use them. The oil bath air cleaner was simply not useable.  It sucked all the oil on the first trial run. The elbow the air cleaner mounts on was'nt a 90 so the air cleaner sat on a slant. The fuel tank and filter have been good, so far. No leaks
The balance of the engine was good enough to run it on the shipping pallet! All the horror stories had me scared. Internally there have been no issues, no sand, and clean enough, except for the oil which I believe was used in many other engines with out filtering. When I pulled the oil pump to lap the ball seats I found bits of string from the improvised gaskets, too much for this one engine to have produced.
I am well pleased with the JKSon engine. If I decide to purchase another It will be a JKSon.
What I have read about the GM-90 has me interested in that engine
With the long hours I have been working I haven't made much progress on getting it set up the way I want it.
Dennis
Now if the indians had a copy of the Blackstone diesel engine, hmmmm!

[cujet]

Mobile_bob

I agree with your points also. The Listeroid is about the only choice for slow speed diesels in this HP range. Also you said that the Listeroids are 95% there (in the big picture). In addition, the claim that major issues do not seem to be cropping up. All true, to an extent.

The list of problems here is a good one. Somethng to bite into.

But there are other, more difficult to quantify issues that I have run across. My job has me maintaining 7 aircraft, all alone. I do not have the free time to pour into this project. Hotater mentioned the very same thing. It can consume time.

In addition, I believe a large percentage of those running long hours have seen breakdowns. Some minor, a few could be considered major. Also time consuming.

Another point is the total project time and cost. Everything must be made, sourced, fabricated, tested and refined. Some have cooling system issues, others governor control issues. Some cannot keep the engine bolted down. Rocketboy's engine is coming loose from the hangar floor! It actually breaks the washers!

My total expense is steep. 1200 for engine, 850 for gen head and pulley, 150 for frame steel, 100 for mufflers, 50 for improved air cleaner, 50 for new paint (most was free) 50 for belt, 150 for radiator, 100++ for water pump, 50 for tubing, 175 for steel gen head mounts, rad mounts etc, 100 for replacement hardware, then add in 500 for the spares I used due to internal problems as delivered. Then we add in nearly 1000 for all the shipping, customs, dock fees and the like. That is a lot for a 9000 watt generator. There are Isuzu units on ebay for similar cost, and they come with a 5000 hour warranty and no sand.


Add to your list,

Governor linkage and control issues, poor frequency control.

Surplus center sells a Mitsubishi 13HP diesel twin which has rad, alt, whater pump and the like. It is ready to go. It can be run at lower RPM with less output. I'll bet it is cost competitive with a 6-1 and will last just as long without any breakdowns. Such is the nature of modern equipment.



Chris