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Author Topic: Increased efficiency take 2  (Read 4928 times)

snail

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Increased efficiency take 2
« on: August 11, 2006, 05:20:53 AM »
Don't know enough about blowers etc to comment, but back on the fuel efficiency thing:take a look at the consumption figures in:

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10065/normal_page%202.jpg

there's 10% straight away. Anyone got some superglue for these fins? ;D Personally I'm all for the quiet life.
If anyone wants it, I could rescan this at better resolution. Guy, would this be any use on your site? I could email them at full size if you like.

Cheers,

Brian

GuyFawkes

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2006, 10:21:32 AM »
Don't know enough about blowers etc to comment, but back on the fuel efficiency thing:take a look at the consumption figures in:

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10065/normal_page%202.jpg

there's 10% straight away. Anyone got some superglue for these fins? ;D Personally I'm all for the quiet life.
If anyone wants it, I could rescan this at better resolution. Guy, would this be any use on your site? I could email them at full size if you like.

Cheers,

Brian

yes ta
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Twinscrew

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2006, 01:27:51 PM »
Hey Snail, sorry man, gettin' old, couldn't read the post. Any chance of enlarging it?

Hey Guy, get my PM?

fattywagonman

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2006, 02:18:03 PM »
Guy's math said the dragster burned 4 times the fuel per HP / output.... when compared to the Lister...  if the lister is 40% efficient that makes the dragster bout 10%.. efficient... I'd buy that... BTW 10% is lousy efficiency..  Over the life of an engine an efficiency gain of just a percent or 3 produces significant savings... Sadi Carnot (likely the most famos therodynamisist of all time)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_L%C3%A9onard_Sadi_Carnot
stated that the maximum potential of a heat engine is 63%... GE has finally broke the 60% barrier with a combined cycle plant... so werew getting very close to Carnot.. 
http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/gas_turbines_cc/en/h_system/index.htm
Fuel cell / tubine combined cycle systems like this one..
http://www.mhi-ir.jp/english/new/sec1/200608041128.html
and this .... http://www.vok.lth.se/~tpe/research/sofc_gt_more.html
have the potential to evemtually become as much as 80% efficient... nearly double the efficiency of a simple cycle heat engine...

fattywagonman

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2006, 02:26:09 PM »

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2006, 04:42:39 PM »
Guy's math said the dragster burned 4 times the fuel per HP / output.... when compared to the Lister...  if the lister is 40% efficient that makes the dragster bout 10%.. efficient... I'd buy that... BTW 10% is lousy efficiency..  Over the life of an engine an efficiency gain of just a percent or 3
.
.
.

Looking again I noticed the 12 gal. is for everything burnout, idling, and the run and just 4 to 5 gallons for just the run.
So here is the correction

From
http://www.goarmy.com/racing/nhra_top_fuel_dragster.jsp
Car 2225 lbs or 1009Kg
Speed 338 mph or 151 m/s

E = 0.5 m v^2 = 11.5 MJ energy accelerate the car


Fuel used 5 gal
Near as I can tell they are limited to 85% nitro at most tracks, Denver seems to be an exception.
Assuming that is by volume we have.  Also assuming nitro and gas are not soluble in each other, a less safe assumption.

4.25 gal or 16088 cm^3 of nitro
0.75 gal or 2839 cm^3 gas

Nitro 1.138 g/cm^3 and 12 MJ/Kg
Gas 0.803 g/cm^3 and 42 MJ/Kg

Nitro 18.3 Kg and 220 MJ
Gas 2.28 Kg and 95.8 MJ

Total 316 MJ

11.5 / 316 = 3.6% efficiency for the car track system.

Buy the time you figure in some estimated driveline losses it is starting to look good for Guy's rough rule O thumb even out in the extremes.
______________
Andre' B

fattywagonman

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2006, 12:40:11 AM »
This is what Wartsila says about efficiency....

The total efficiency of large power plants can be raised by converting part of the waste heat from the exhaust gases into electricity. This requires a steam boiler and steam turbine connected in what is called a “combined cycle”, which can raise the plant’s electrical efficiency to approximately 55%. Another method is to use some of the waste heat from the exhaust gases to produce heat in the form of steam or hot water using a waste gas boiler. This system, called “combined heat and power” (CHP), can raise the plant’s total efficiency to 75 – 90%.

Over the past three decades, the efficiency of Wärtsilä’s most energy-efficient engines has risen from roughly 41% to about 50%. This has been achieved through a variety of methods such as increasing the cylinder pressure, raising the compression ratio, reducing the fuel injection period, optimizing the valve timing, and improving the combustion process. The pace of improvement in efficiency has fallen off somewhat in recent years owing to the increasing restrictions placed on nitrogen oxide emissions. As to engine performance values, the most important priorities in Wärtsilä’s R&D programme include raising efficiency and reducing emissions. The same trend will continue in the years ahead; to maintain its competitive edge, Wärtsilä will need to raise the efficiency of its engines further despite the ever more stringent nitrogen oxide limits.

Raising engine efficiency and lowering emission levels can significantly reduce environmental load because large diesel and gas engines have a long lifecycle, typically 25 – 50 years.

DaveW

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2006, 01:24:40 AM »
Snail -

DaveW

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2006, 01:27:19 AM »
Sorry - it just went off. I didn't know it was loaded.  Honest I checked for a live round and everything.. Anyway, I couldn't read the first post, and the 10% is interesting. Could you rescan, or at least give a hint of what it said?  Thanks.

fattywagonman

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Re: Increased efficiency take 2
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2006, 06:21:03 AM »
A really good friend of mine drives this crazy thing...

http://www.firebirdonline.com/whats_new/06may_15.htm

http://cgi.ebay.com/CHEETAH-III-Top-Fuel-Nostalgia-Handout-Set-RARE-Look_W0QQitemZ120015371312QQcmdZViewItem

He really likes all my cooky energy related stuff... Today I talked to him about efficiency... He thinks it's lousy at best...  but he promised to get me some real #'s