Other Engine Room Equipment

[Andre Blanchard]

What follows are some long term goals and like all such things are subject changes as imposed by reality.

My only real plan for increasing the efficiency of my listeroid engines comes out of how I will be using the engine.  Rather then running for long periods of time the engine will likely only be run for an hour or three at a time meaning a significant percent of the run time will be at less then full operating temperature.  So when practical I can preheat the engine coolant, sump oil, and fuel if needed (vegetable or thicker used motor oils).



This is a wood/coal burning water heater sold by Sears a while back and will be plumbed into the engine coolant loop as shown by the drawing at the link below.
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10034/Engine%20preheat.jpg

It could also be used to supplement the heat from the engine if needed for co-generation, but you would need to sit there and feed it about every five minutes.  But a wood gasifying system could be used with the gas being burnt in the water heater.


The other day someone stated that the most efficient way of running a mechanical load from an engine is by direct or belt drive rather then thru a generator and a motor.  In that vein I have collected the following equipment to be driven directly by the engine.



An air compressor which has many uses in a wood or metal shop.  It will need a rebuild before it can be used.



Also a compressor but it is from a refrigeration system.  This link shows something like (very simplified) how it will be setup.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/refrig.htm
The condenser coil will be in a tank of water a small pump will be used to create a spray to increase the evaporative cooling if needed.
I also have a 600 gallon milk tank which will be cooled by the other end of the system.  The chilled water can then be pumped thru a radiator in the house when A/C is needed, this pump and a fan are low powered enough that they can be run off the house batteries and PV system without the engine running.  That way the engine and compressor does not need to run all the time while I can still get some amount of cooling.  This milk tank has some insulation but when the install is completed it will be better insulated.  In colder weather it will be used for storing the engine heat.




The pump in the picture is mainly intended to be manually operated by screwing in a pipe as a handle.  But it can also be powered by a connecting rod to the cross hole just below, the other end would be connected to a crank on a suitable gearbox, got one from some junked out farm equipment.  I will likely run it with a low voltage DC motor direct off the battery bank but if needed any motor or even a belt to an engine could be used and there is also the manual option.
I currently have a conventional submersible pump down the well, which of course can only be run by electricity and a good deal of it when running even if the average energy use is small.
If I were to drop a jet pump down the well it could be operated by the above piston pump making it possible to get water regardless of what kind of power was available.
This piston pump is also in need of a complete rebuild, even the teeth on the sector and rack gears are worn down to sharp points.

[slowspeed1953]

Andre, neat assortment of goodies! I really like the propane cooling system idea.

Are you going to use the the cooling system as a heat pump, using the hot cooling water as a medium for your condenser? Listeroidthermal heat pump. LOL.

Peace&Love , Darren

[Andre Blanchard]

Andre, neat assortment of goodies! I really like the propane cooling system idea.

Are you going to use the the cooling system as a heat pump, using the hot cooling water as a medium for your condenser? Listeroidthermal heat pump. LOL.

Peace&Love , Darren

If by heat pump you mean pumping heat out of the house then yes but I see little reason to use it the other direction, wood is just to easy and the engine coolant is at a high enough temp it does not need to be pumped.

[sid]

the pump looks promising.. it looks more like a bilge pump but most are repairable// I just finished rebuilding one very similar to that one// it is a 1928 crane double .. I had to make the plunger shaft and a few brass screws that hold the rubber seats.. but the leather cup washers were satill available at an ole hardware in town..it would have been cheaper to bought one allready working.. but where would the fun in that//sid

[Rtqii]

Yeah the loads add up

I like the Curtis compressor heads.

I also like the preheater, I have put some serious thought into installing one for a WVO preheating loop also. If you are only running for an hour or so, you won't get more than a few minutes on WVO without one. Preheaters can dispose of oil waste (you know the waste of the waste)... Oil from the bottom of settling tanks, rags, clogged filter elements, etc.

[slowspeed1953]

Andre, neat assortment of goodies! I really like the propane cooling system idea.

Are you going to use the the cooling system as a heat pump, using the hot cooling water as a medium for your condenser? Listeroidthermal heat pump. LOL.

Peace&Love , Darren

If by heat pump you mean pumping heat out of the house then yes but I see little reason to use it the other direction, wood is just to easy and the engine coolant is at a high enough temp it does not need to be pumped.

Andre,

I dont think I asked my question clearly. What my question is are you aware that you could put your condenser in your listeroid's cooling tank, and use it as a heat source for a heat pump. Just like a geothermal heat pump would use a condenser loop in the 55* earth to heat your home or a regular heat pumpc condenser extracts heat from the out side air. It would probabally be tremendiously efficienct.

Sooner than later in the worlds timeline there will be no wood to burn.

Peace&Love , Darren

[dkwflight]

Hi The wood or coal boiler reminds me of a "Bucket-a-day" water heater. My parents bought a house from an old timer who heated with coal and whe he wanted hot water for the saturday night bath he lit the boiler off.
Experience will tell you how long to fire the boiler to heat the engine. Install a temp gage in the water loop some where. Include a relief valve some where to limit pressures.

As far as using propane in a refrigeration system---"BE CAREFUL"!!!!. Be sure there are no leaks. Pure propane is almost a perfect drop in for R22. It is very close to the performance or R22 which is non flamable. The "Propane" you buy at the local propane seller is often a mix of several flammable gasses. In use in an airconditioning system propane will have-- NO smell. YOU CAN BLOW YOUR HOUSE OFF THE FOUNDATION!!!  Propane is heavier than air and will settle in low places in the house, like your basment. I would only use propane in a "Chiller" in a very well ventilated shed well away from the house. I would circulate chilled water or brine to the house air handler.
If I have told you about things  you already know,--- good! I can't stress safety enough!
Good luck
Dennis.

[bitsnpieces1]

Propane and Methane are odorless.  They put a class of chemicals called mercaptans into it for some odor.  Straight mercaptans will make you puke bigtime.  It's part of what makes rotten meat stink so bad. 

[mobile_bob]

ya,, and you should try to rinse that stuff out of a propane tank some time!!

that stuff is nearly impossible to get out of a tank.... wow, smelly is not a good enough word for it.

i don't know how efficient those old timey components are but they sure are cool

as for the heat pump idea it has merit,,, thermoking use that principle to pump heat back into the box to defrost with, they heat pump off the engine coolant system,, very efficient!

i plan on a chiller system as part of my trigeneration plan,, 500 gallons of water will provide enough capacity for my small superinsulated home plan.  i purchase two 30 lb containers of r22, but the propane route would be equally effective given i am thinking of having the whole system in a well ventilated remote from the house room anyway.

i bought a book on thermal storage as it is used in commercial buildings, it has all the engineering/math/formulae needed to work out a workable system.. propane would sure make for a cheap prototype system.

i guess if i put the air intake of the lister close to the floor it can vacuum up any propane leakage 
and get something back from the loss, should there be one..

pretty cool

bob g

[rsnapper]

You might consider asking your home owners insurance company what they think about a propane AC unit. They may not even cover it. Thousands of folks around here thought their houses were covered until Katrina hit. They paid installments for years thinking I'm in good hands. Most of them were denied coverage. The lawsuits have just begun. Don't "ass u me" they will cover it.

Dennis said it right, propane will replace R22 almost identically but ask yourself is it worth it? I work at an oil refinery and am VERY familiar with propane and its capabilities. I've seen first hand just how hot it burns and how explosive the ignition is. No odor straight from the distillation column, is extremely flammable, heavier than air, is extremely flammable, will find an ignition source if not contained, and lastly is EXTREMELY flammable. If a leak develops in your house and it finds an ignition source your house will probably be blown into toothpicks. You probably can build a system that does not leak, people do it all the time. However, many systems do develop leaks over time. Are you 100% certain that the system you build will never leak? Knowing what I do about propane, I would not even consider using it as a refrigerant in a home system.

Please take a minute to think about the possibilities.  R22 is cheap peace of mind.

Rick

[GuyFawkes]

You might consider asking your home owners insurance company what they think about a propane AC unit. They may not even cover it. Thousands of folks around here thought their houses were covered until Katrina hit. They paid installments for years thinking I'm in good hands. Most of them were denied coverage. The lawsuits have just begun. Don't "ass u me" they will cover it.

speaking of insurance generally, this is so true, there is cheap insurance, and there is good insurance, and they are always two very different things.

I just rear ended a woman yesterday, metal to metal impact was <10 mph, not my first accident, but first one that was totally my fault, that night I bought another car as I knew the insurance would write off (financially) the old renault, transferred the policy today, my premium and no claims are insured, so no policy increases, I make a profit on the old car, the woman I hit gets taken care of and a loaner while hers is being sorted, magic.

If you're going to have an accident, a 10 mph one between two old cars and no meat damaged is the ideal kind to have, especially when you have a good insurance company.

Never bullshit ins companies, did you stress exposed flywheels and belts? If not even if water comes through your bathroom floor that lister in the shed can invalidate your entire policy when the asessor comes around.

[hotater]

Darren---

"NO WOOD TO BURN"   

  Have you never flown cross country and looked out the window!?  Those that spend their time in town forget that 'towns' are nothing but flyspecks on the over all landscape. 

I was in Dallas this spring and sat through a tirade of several minutes by a young attorney decrying the "paving of America" and how towns and shopping malls and highways were eating up "all the free land in the country".   I guess when you spend your whole life either locked in a city or riding the aisle seat in an airplane such a rediculous notion could take hold.  I pity the poor fools that live like that.

[GerryH]

Yeah Hotater,
Thats why its called a reneable resource. The tree huggers never leave the parks to see the logging sites that were logged and replanted in the 1970's, being logged again today

[Andre Blanchard]

Darren:
I know what you mean about the heat pump thing but it is just not needed.  The engine coolant is much hotter then the house will ever be so all that is needed is a radiator and a fan maybe a small pump if a thermo siphon system is inconvenient to setup.
Just to be clear my system would have two water tanks.  The insulated one for storing the chilled water (from the refrigeration system) in the summer and hot water (from the engine coolant etc.) in the winter.  In the summer the engine coolant would have to go to a radiator or a third tank.
The second tank would only be used in the summer and would be the hot side (condenser) of the refrigeration system, could use a conventional radiator but I think a small water tank with a little copper coil in it and a little cooling tower would be easier, think of the old screen cooled engines.

Sooner than later in the worlds timeline there will be no wood to burn.

I got 28 acres here 25 are wooded, I have been burning off that for 12 years and there is just as much dead stuff out there now as when I started.  If the world ever gets to the point of not having enough trees, heating will be way down on the list of problems.


Those voicing fear of hydrocarbon refrigerants:

You really swallowed that fear campaign by the auto companies back when Freon was outlawed.  That campaign had nothing to do with safety and everything to do with $$$$$.  The hydrocarbon refrigerants were/are a direct replacement for Freon, the patent on which had run out.  The hydrocarbon refrigerants were nothing new and could not be patented.  The new designer refrigerants (patented) were not compatible with the old systems, big surprise there.  So when car owners looked at the cost of changing their cars A/C system over, most just went and got a new car $$$$$$.
The few ounces of propane in the system is of little concern, a house with a propane cook stove, water heater, dryer in the laundry, and heating system, all built for low price and profit and connected to a 1000 gallon tank has a lot more explosive potential.

Home insurance:
I told them to piss on an outlet when they said I would have to get rid of the wood stove, no UL sticker.  With wood stoves just like with guns and boilers there is no such thing as an accident, If I fuck up and the house burns down it would be my fault and I would just build a new one, remember the woods and the little bandsaw sawmill I built.
As for acts of god, me and it have a few things to discuss already if it ever has the balls to show it's face.

[bitsnpieces1]

  I remember running across an old reference somewhere...Ah Ha, Guys Engineering handbook, book page 99 (PDF page 51), top right corner.  Lists "Principal Substances Used In Refrigeration",  Ether, SO2, Air, Water, Ammonia, and CO2(boils at minus 78 degrees).  Also has a lot in info for designing a system.  Could be a real help.