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Author Topic: C-19  (Read 2726 times)

snowman18

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Re: C-19
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2020, 10:25:55 PM »

mikenash

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Re: C-19
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2020, 07:21:47 AM »
Re sea-level rise . . .

FWIW I don't think there's any real doubt that the water is rising (after all, there's less ice - where the hell else is it gonna go).  Where I grew up as s kid in the almost-coastal town of Hastings there were several beach-front settlements and all have retreated now as the water has risen over 50 years . . .

BUT as for whether the change in our climate is entirely natural, or completely man-made, or a combination of the two - I'm not sure we have been measuring it long enough to be as definitive as we think we are about that.  Sure we are putting greenhouse gases into the air and that's dumb - maybe they're responsible for 90% of the changes?  Maybe they're responsible for 10% of the change.  i suspect we're a bit too close to the events to know

There's a famous strategist and Vietnamese General Nguyen Ngoc Loan (possibly miss-spelt) and he is the man who said - of the vietnam war "Tens of thousands of men are going to die.  What of it?  Men die every day.  If you don't have the stomach for that - you shouldn't be leading men"

Anyway he was something of a philosopher & student of history and, culturally, French, and was once asked.  "What affect do you think the French Revolution has had on French Culture?"

He thought for some time and eventually responded with "Too soon to say"

That's how I feel about the climate debate

Also - on the original subject from which I have digressed again - COVID19.  Our small country has done something interesting - although possibly financially fatal - in introducing four weeks of a very strict lock-down very early in the pandemic.

Our government took the attitude (unlike Uncle Nguyen) that killing some tens of thousands of our people was Just Not On and that if the economy takes a hit to save a big number of lives - so be it

I will watch with interest to see how our experience compares with those of other countries (Hawaii might be comparable, as an island, maybe?)

Good luck to one and all as the virus runs its course

dieselspanner

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Re: C-19
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2020, 11:42:46 AM »
I've only heard one sensible statement concerning mankind's reaction to climate change.........

A, If it's happening and mankind has nothing to do with it then anything we can do is pointless

B, If it's happening and we are the cause then we'd better get cracking and do what we can - pronto.

C, It's not happening.

In any case, doing whatever we can, will, in the worst case, have no effect.

Doing bugger all may very well drop us right in it.


From a personal view point I don't really care, I'm 65 and live at 935m (3000 feet) above sea level in a valley with enough sheep, cows, deer, boar, fish and vegetable plots to support the population much as it did for hundreds of years up, to and beyond, WWI. There's plenty of scope for hydro electric power too.

I'll probably be dead before we hit the Mad Max scenario, if not, the CS and all that veg oil in the shed will come in handy!

Why everybody who is raising a young family is not doing everything they can (be it necessary or not) to counter 'climate change' I fail to understand, completely. The problem, should it occur, will fall on their kids.

Meanwhile I'll keep on carrying on......

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glort

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Re: C-19
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2020, 03:32:21 PM »
Doing bugger all may very well drop us right in it.

With the Current situation and the effect on the world economy, There is going to be bugger all money to put towards this CC and bugger all concern from the great majority of the worlds population from here on in for the next 5 years at least. 

That said, The doing of Bugger all by the western worlds population for the next month or 6 may have far better results than anything that was ever thought of before.

I look forward ( and hope I'm still around) to seeing the drop in Co2 levels.

guest23837

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Re: C-19
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2020, 06:56:24 PM »
Doing bugger all may very well drop us right in it.

With the Current situation and the effect on the world economy, There is going to be bugger all money to put towards this CC and bugger all concern from the great majority of the worlds population from here on in for the next 5 years at least. 

That said, The doing of Bugger all by the western worlds population for the next month or 6 may have far better results than anything that was ever thought of before.

I look forward ( and hope I'm still around) to seeing the drop in Co2 levels.

The old order changeth yielding place to new And God fulfills himself in many ways Lest one good custom should corrupt the world. Tennyson
The world as we know it will be changed forever people have had to learn hard lessons and there's harder lessons ahead. One thing that will change is the attitude to China not about the virus but about the sh1t quality of their stuff. Ireland ordered €200 million plus of PPE they sent a load of crap. People will stop moaning about the cost of the NHS or similar after seeing what medics do and what sacrifices they make for others. Blowhard politicians have had their day for a few decades as have the spoofers and chancers and outright liars. The green part in Ireland has been shown to be all of that and will get the kicking they richly deserve soon as a ballot box appears.
People have started to realise technology isn't the be all and end all so hopefully the upgrade to the latest plastic crap will slow down. Staying away from others will prolong your life should also introduce a bit of self sufficiency that has long been lacking.
Nothing since the plague has been so dangerous

glort

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Re: C-19
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2020, 12:05:05 AM »

I don't know about the blow hard Politicians having had their day, I think they are the most persistent Diseases of all, but I certainly think a lot of things will change as you suggest, the main one being peoples attitudes. I see that happening already and I think we are at the very beginning still and the end is the best part of 6 Months away and they we will start to rebuild and recover.

After the hard ships and reality checks many will get in the next 6 Months alone, let alone after, There will be a far greater expectation for everyone to pull their weights and much less tolerance for those that don't and think they are still " special".

I think we just took a 50 year + rewind.  The snow Flake generation with their no consequences attitude of not upholding their word are going to get a big lesson in having consideration for others  and personal responsibility for one thing. I think a lot of Millenials are also in for a BIG attitude and responsibility adjustment.

I think the world has also learned just how fragile our survival is and how dependent we are.  One rumour and there is no food on the shelves and people can be in real trouble. I think shortages of things yet to come will grow and give people a much greater appreciation for how easily their comfy lifestyle can vanish and they can be in real trouble.

I predict the gardening industry will take a big upturn as those with the space start trying to be a bit more self sufficient. Might even knock on to the housing industry where people that rushed in to buy whatever cardboard shoe box they could and call it a home will now actually look for something with a useable backyard with a greater area than 2 lawn Chairs.
The repair Industry will also take an upturn as those with things that still can be repaired look to get as long as they can out of them rather than automaticaly Chuck them out and buy new.

The appliance and product manufacturers may be forced to take a 50 year rewind as well and make things that are made to last beyond 5-10 years and can be repaired when they do break down.  It will be interesting to see if this goes to thinks like vehicles and whether the aftermath of this will be severe enough to impact their designs. Instead of 50 completely and utterly useless features, maybe we will see a more back to basics and reliability approach.

The west will definitely go back to an attitude of more self sufficiency and doing things " In house" far more than ever before and free trade is highly likely to not be anywhere near as free flowing.

I definitely see this as a pre and post point in history where we will look back at the way things were before but are no longer.
Not all of that will be bad.

I was wondering when all the craziness with so many things would end and where the world would finish up and now I'm seeing it.
Just hope I get to live though it.

guest23837

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Re: C-19
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2020, 12:34:55 AM »
I agree with most of what you said mate I would just add a couple of other changes I can see coming. One is the massive inequality in the west, loads of wealthy peoples kids were on school trips to Italy recently I believe they helped spread the virus in Ireland. When I was at school a school trip was a half day at the beach or a national monument. Cheap air flights will stop being the norm, it's  as cheap to fly return to New York from Dublin as it is to have a good meal and a night in a Dublin hotel. That's madness, of course I pay 62% tax on a gallon of paraffin aviation fuel is exempt.
I saw on the news the news this evening that the virus is ramping up in South Africa. 40 years ago, when my sister lived there the country was wealthy and there was work and opportunity. It's still technically a first world country but they have nothing and nothing to buy any supplies with, it's a disaster happening before their eyes, When this is over I imagine the survivors will be keen to get shot of the useless politicians and corruption.
America is also in a lot of trouble and it's looking bad for the people there. Again useless politicians, stupid so called pastors and "religious" making mad statements and the president trying to raise the price of oil so American shale oil will be profitable and help his re-election. PT Barnum said “Nobody ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the American public.”  I think he's wrong on this occasion people will die by the bus load deaths that could have been prevented.

mikenash

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Re: C-19
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2020, 01:09:20 AM »
John we have painted ourselves into a corner imho

Once upon a time the bell curve had a medium width section for poor-ish folk, a monstrous fat rump of working/middle class folks who did OK-ish and whose kids could go on a half-day school trip most years, and a wee sharp peak of millionaires

In the decades since we have bought onto the lie of privatisation+progress and this, coupled with technology (which hasn't delivered the promised Universal Three Day Working Week but has just made the folks who own the tech uber-rich), has upended the bell curve

Now it has a wide,wide,wide base of folks with nothing, a skinny, shrinking, debt-burdened middle class middle bit, and a steeple tall peak of billionaires

IMHO again, only a transformative societal change as extreme as something like a Universal Basic Income and something amounting to a partial nationalisation of essential assets will suffice

That, and getting back to making stuff that lasts and bugger the Chinese

McCarthy wanted to nuke 'em back to the 6th century back in the 50s "while we have the chance" but he was overruled (not because it was "wrong" but because it was "politically unpalatable" lol

Without the Chinese we'd have to pay $8 for our Tee shirst not $2.50.  But I'd be OK about that if lots of Kiwis had jobs with fair wages in the T-shirt factory  :-\

guest23837

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Re: C-19
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2020, 08:28:24 AM »
Mike I agree with you. But I don't think it's too late. The model is wrong, "investors" which is another name for greedy rich people who want to get richer without any effort or production of anything have lost "confidence". That weird looking bowl haircut Zuckerberg is a billionaire from producing nothing, reselling nothing. A lot of paper wealth is built on advertising or futures nothing tangible. The UK recently left the EU and a lot of people there work in "service" and "financial service" so called industries. They produce very little tangible goods and are mostly dependant on the confidence of investors ....Ireland produces very little now too although we can still feed ourselves many countries have lost even that basic ability. It was unsustainable and like the Dutch tulip bulb frenzy built on sand and not casting sand at that.
Many western countries rely on China and other poorer countries to make stuff, do the work. That means we can have disposable clothing, cheap coffee grown by subsistence farmers and phones that cost a grand. WTF is the point? There is more awareness that the system as we know it can't go on and some politicians are offering simplistic solutions to big problems. Sadly the solutions on offer are blaming others and racism not ideas that tend be be productive. Making stuff that last, growing your own food, repairing stuff so that polluting factories are no longer needed to produce disposable goods. I have been recycling my waste for years and its getting harder and harder. Plastic bottles and containers are everywhere some aren't recyclable or made out of a combination of different plastics,, plastic film, plastic coated cardboard etc this shit isn't recyclable and it's unnecessary. It's all linked into how people are and how they live. 
Like most people  on this site I'm fairly self sufficient, I fix stuff we grow some veg, we recycle  but many people can't and just don't know how how. They are bombarded with advertising and gadgets that are supposed to make their lives easier. They are educated to be "academic" or a failure nothing practical is taught not even how to think. I see people who have to "google" everything they have no abilities and no way to remember basic things because they were never taught basic stuff like learning by rote. These are the people that are behaving stupidly during this crises, , it's unfair to call people that don't know stuff stupid but it's easy to do that.

LowGear

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Re: C-19
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2020, 07:05:19 PM »
Who will win the hearts of these new countries as they come out of this pandemic?  The sellers of "cool", "fast", "easy", "sexy" and WANT or the ideas of "self sufficiency", "local", "repairable" and of course "work"?  Kinda scary.

I think it somewhat depends on how many die.  And how soon the next one hits.  It's like using the same plans to build a replacement house of one that burned or flooded.  Unless you want to experience another chapter of what put your back up against the wall you have to make a few changes.

I still shop a bit at Walmart.  I admire their training program.  Will they start shopping the world?  Will governments start requiring a certain percentage of goods be manufactured in the home country?  Will the wild pony / work horse market economy start getting some stronger bridles?  Let's not shoot the horse because the barn burned down.

Stay tuned boys and girls for next weeks show.  New settings?  New stars? 

I have only been off the farm twice in the last week (further than I can walk) and it looks like I may be in full hermit mode this coming few weeks.  Can you imagine being trapped in an apartment in a 250 apartment complex?  Well, I'm going over to another channel now to see how much of Rome burned last night. 

Aloha,

PS:  The big island still has less than 20 active cases and has yet to have someone put in the hospital for C-19.
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guest23837

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Re: C-19
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2020, 07:55:51 PM »
Who will win the hearts of these new countries as they come out of this pandemic?  The sellers of "cool", "fast", "easy", "sexy" and WANT or the ideas of "self sufficiency", "local", "repairable" and of course "work"?  Kinda scary.

I think it somewhat depends on how many die.  And how soon the next one hits.  It's like using the same plans to build a replacement house of one that burned or flooded.  Unless you want to experience another chapter of what put your back up against the wall you have to make a few changes.

I still shop a bit at Walmart.  I admire their training program.  Will they start shopping the world?  Will governments start requiring a certain percentage of goods be manufactured in the home country?  Will the wild pony / work horse market economy start getting some stronger bridles?  Let's not shoot the horse because the barn burned down.

Stay tuned boys and girls for next weeks show.  New settings?  New stars? 

I have only been off the farm twice in the last week (further than I can walk) and it looks like I may be in full hermit mode this coming few weeks.  Can you imagine being trapped in an apartment in a 250 apartment complex?  Well, I'm going over to another channel now to see how much of Rome burned last night. 

Aloha,

PS:  The big island still has less than 20 active cases and has yet to have someone put in the hospital for C-19.

Things won't return to the way they were. Things changed drastically after the black death and a century after that the enlightenment began. Interestingly the plague came west from China along the old trade routes. Between those 2 events the peasant revolt occurred it also ended indentured servants basically slaves that worked for their food and board to a local baron or lord. Might not be those type of changes but lord Zukerberg, lord Bezos et al might have things to worry about in future.

snowman18

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Re: C-19
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2020, 08:12:55 PM »








guest23837

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Re: C-19
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2020, 08:26:26 PM »
Is that load of bollocks some conspiracy nonsense?

mikenash

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Re: C-19
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2020, 08:32:16 PM »


Things won't return to the way they were. Things changed drastically after the black death and a century after that the enlightenment began. Interestingly the plague came west from China along the old trade routes. Between those 2 events the peasant revolt occurred it also ended indentured servants basically slaves that worked for their food and board to a local baron or lord. Might not be those type of changes but lord Zukerberg, lord Bezos et al might have things to worry about in future.

John, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.  But it worries me that the power of entrenched interests won't be shaken without a BIG upheaval and that they'll just Bounce Right Back

I guess we'll see.  I might go buy a couple cases of beans and maybe a few thousand rounds of .308 lol

guest23837

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Re: C-19
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2020, 08:47:04 PM »
People power Mike the thing most politicians fear. 40% of Irish people don't vote politicians love that. If the people decide that they want some particular direction for the country then that's what has to happen. I don't know where you live or how things are there but Ireland is a wealthy enough country with full employment until recently. People with reasonable jobs sleeping in cars because there are no places to rent or buy. 50 kids in a classroom lousy roads everything you want to buy costs way more here than anywhere else in Europe and the politicians keep referring to their God the markets. Their god seems to have feet and legs of clay. People aren't totally stupid (I hope)