Author Topic: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries  (Read 16179 times)

Rtqii

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Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« on: August 08, 2006, 09:13:48 PM »
Ok... This thread may not apply to many, even most, people.  I know a lot of people are adverse to taking engine power off for anything other than their primary application (say generator) and a lot of people are running 6/1s and need every bit of HP delivered to their dedicated loads.

I am getting a bigger engine... As soon as my checks clear I am putting my money where my mouth is on a 20/2. My "dedicated" load will be an ST15kw, but I won't use 1/2 the engine output generating electricity most days. I will have excess engine capacity that I can put to work running auxillary equipment: fuel pump, water pumps, oil transfer pumps, crankcase bypass filter pump, etc.. At some point soon after the engine is set up in place I am going to want/need a low volt DC generator to charge an off-grid battery bank (saves me a charger and losses), and I will need to run a big two stage air compressor head on occasions.

Rather than generating AC electricity and running all the engine house auxillaries from electrical power and the resulting efficiency and reliablity losses, _or_ running 3-4 different belt setups to various pulleys and equipment stands (and the resulting physical danger). I am inclined to belt off and run a single hydraulic pump.

The problem is I know nothing about hydraulics.  Herein I am presenting some ideas... Simple stuff and easily implemented with relatively inexpensive off the shelf hardware... I have some questions... I would like some of you hydraulic gurus to kick out some responses and help me clarify the system I would like to see built.

It has been posted before that there are power steering pumps you can pull off junked cars that will serve to pump hydraulic oil when belted directly to the engine. If I had a full load of auxillaries I am sure a power steering pump would not have nearly enough output to run them all effectively, no way would it turn my big two-stage compressor head, or a DC generator for charging an off-grid battery bank.

The problem is I don't know enough about hyrdraulics to design a system that will. A search at places like the surplus center turn up all kinds of hydraulic pumps and motors, but what all is involved in actually setting up a hydraulic system? How would I make it flexible? I don't run my air compressor all the time for instance.

How do hydraulic pumps idle? For instance, if you are turning a pump then shut down the load... Does the pump extract energy from the engine and continue to attempt to drive the load or does it bypass... How efficient is this?

What major components are needed to set up a hydraulic system?  My air compressor head needs 5 HP between 4-6 hundred RPM (and is extremely hard to start when there is pressure in the tank)... I have not looked around to see what a decent DC generator suitable for powering a battery bank charge controller uses as far as shaft power input.

Can you run a power steering pump as a hydraulic motor and drive a hot water pump? I see lots of hydraulic equipment rated as for pumping and as a motor.

Anybody?

GuyFawkes

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2006, 10:09:49 PM »
OK, I was taught hydraulics by the fellow who (helped) design the battleship gun stabilisers in the last big one.

Three types of pump, gear, vane and piston, there are variations within those themes, swash plate etc.

Also basically three types of motor, you guessed it, gear, vane and piston.

"Dowty" type gear pumps are the most flexible, they do most jobs pretty well.

If you had a boat and wanted a hydraulic drive then a vane pump and piston swash plate motor will do you fine.

If you want to drive crawler tracks or other high torque applications a piston cam (radial) motor will serve you best.

===============================

A _well__designed_ hydraulic pump and motor system can be quite efficient, in excess of 90% is possible, but the devil is in the details.

FORGET ideas about using power steering pumps, do it right or don't bother, you will be pissing energy (and probably hydraulic oil) away for a passtime.

Hydraulics will ALWAYS absorb some power, even if you are just spooling the pump idle through the return and (and of course case drain) and filters and oil cooler, so fit a clutch between lister and pump.

Basically I'm going to be doing something similar to you, I'll grab a dowty type gear pump because they are easiest and cheapest to get, maybe  gear motor too, and powering a couple of rams.

clutch
pump
oil reservoir
oil filters
oil cooler
valve chest
motor(s) + rams or whatever
obvious pressure lines for feed and return, and possibly case drain too depending on what you spec out.

Hydraulics require SURGICAL cleanliness, given a choice use ATF in preference to hydraulic fluid, slightly more expensive, much better anto foaming.

I personally don't like JIC, which may be all you can get in the states, I dunno, BSP is the best, get it if you can, avoid the metric fittings at all costs.

R0 is resturn line hose, R1 low pressure, R2 medium pressure, R3 high pressure, R1 is enough for what you want. Solid lines are seamless drawn steel tube, use with pillow blocks where possible (examine a digger) in preference to flexible lines.

Hydraulic is full torque at zero rpm, like steam, so things get broken easy if you don't watch out.

If you are trying to drive two things, such as two motors or two rams, evenly, you can't just connect them because the fluid follows the lowest pressure path, so you either buy a gear splitter, which costs as much as a pump, cos it is one, sort of, or two pumps.

Hydraulics needs PLENTY of good manual safety systems, eg digger arms have point where solid bars are locked in before you start work, otherwise the moment you crack a pipe everything descends on you and crushes you.

Air locks and water and dirt are the nemesis of hydraulics, but with proper design you can make hydraulics work reliably in the worst of conditions, see diggers again.

Hydraulic oil is NOT incompressible, no fluid is, so size everything appropriately.

You need SPECIFIC help to do what you want, with selection and specification of components, ideally someone local to you, that's the best way to grab the bargain anyway, someone in the trade

Hydraulics is NOT a cheap option, it is an expensive option, but it can yield incredible reliability and in the longer term prove excellent value for money.

Hydraulics is not quiet. You'd better like that singing and whining or it will get old real quick.

HTH etc
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Rtqii

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2006, 11:48:29 PM »
Hydraulics is NOT a cheap option, it is an expensive option, but it can yield incredible reliability and in the longer term prove excellent value for money.

Hydraulics is not quiet. You'd better like that singing and whining or it will get old real quick.

HTH etc

Did you say something? I can't hear you over that durned singing and whining!!!  ;D

Nothing efficient and reliable is cheap I have learned. Long term reliablity and _safety_ are more important than the initial expense... If I save tons of money using V-belts everywhere and lose an arm or my life how much am I really saving?  Open flywheels and belts make a little nervous, I can deal with being cautious, but I don't want to set up some place to work where everything is belts and moving wheels to grab at you.

I learned a lot from your input. I have done HVAC stuff and know how things in the system have to be clean and dry, the need for filtration is understandable. You make a good suggestion about finding someone local to help put a system together, good advice.

It would be nice to maybe find something like a junked digger and scavenge off as much of the system as I can... It would cut the cost significantly. 

I don't need all this instantly, so I have time to spec out components and design slowly... I can belt my compressor head short term and I don't own a DC generator yet.  As for the power steering pump I simply dropped that out here because I wondered if a pump could turn one as a small hydraulic motor. They are cheap and reliable as pumps, used as a motor I think it would be about the right size and speed to turn a hot water pump in heating loops for example. The question is... Will one run as a motor?

I would not try to actually build a real hydraulic system based on a power steering unit as a pump  ;)  I may be ignorant, but I am not stupid  :P

Quote
If you are trying to drive two things, such as two motors or two rams, evenly, you can't just connect them because the fluid follows the lowest pressure path, so you either buy a gear splitter, which costs as much as a pump, cos it is one, sort of, or two pumps.

I think I understand what you are saying... But I do not see a need to drive two devices "evenly", I might try to drive two devices with different energy requirements. It seems to me, and for example I will use a water manifold, that you should be able to use a restrictor valve to adjust the pressure and flow to various outlets under load?  I mean I have seen commerical hydraulic equipment with all kinds of things running at the same time off the pump... Rams, motors, even hydraulic air conditioning.

One issue with driving rotary machinery with an engine like we do, is that I will have equipment mounts set out here and there around a developed engine house... But other than my generator, I don't want moving belts running between equipment mounts. In days gone by they used flat belts and overhead drive shafts, and they made drops from the ceiling to power individual equipment stands. I need rotational force delivered in a couple or 5 different places, and I don't want to have to engineer overhead shafts and flat belt drops. While generator/motor sets work great in practice, it is not the best way to squeeze the most amount of work from a prime mover if rotational force is needed only a few feet away. Direct drive or belting is the most efficient, well designed hydraulic systems would come in second it seems, and electrical transmission of the power is third place.  It makes no sense to produce rotational force, convert it into AC, use a battery charger to convert it into DC and charge batteries for instance... Better to generate DC from the rotational force to start with.  Same goes for generating 5 HP to run my compressor head, sending it 8 feet by wire, and using a big (expensive) motor to convert it back to rotational force. Belts would be great for everything... But I would not feel so safe with lots of long belts running here and there driving this type equipment.

It seems that with some correctly applied parts of the right specs, hydraulics make this quite possible. Thanks Guy   :)

P.S. even before I think about walking up to some local hydraulics man for a talk, I need to study the vocabulary and understand the language. I know what I will be researching next.

mobile_bob

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 04:59:27 AM »
two things of note

if you live near a city, find a Parker dealer, they have some excellent books on the subject of hydraulics, and knowledgable folks to help you. also they will have all manner of fittings, from metric, sae, jic, and guys favorite the british stuff, along with all the hoses, connectors, pillow blocks etc.

also if you are near a farming area, check out the junk yards, farmer yards etc... old combines etc have a ton of hydraulics, that might give you some parts to work with.

check out www.surpluscenter.com, they have a bunch of stuff too, fairly priced

if you are going to be rebuilding rams, pumps etc and need seals and packings ,,, in seattle "Eriks" is the preiminent supplier, if they dont have it, i am convinced it was never made, minimum order is 25 bucks though, and their prices are excellent.

hope this helps
bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

lev-l-lok

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 02:30:01 PM »
Rtqii, Look into the drive systems for hydrostatic drive mowers and tractors, lots of flow at pressure for torque and rpms for your compressor. you will prolly need one of the tractor variety hyd. motors and pumps to belt up to the required compressor rpm and hp. You may be able to find a rollover for parts

Paul
Paul

1922 Fairbanks 6 hp Z, Chang Fa ZS1115G / Fuking ST-10, Lister? soon!

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 04:37:16 PM »
And he is talking about tractors all the way from about 4hp up to several hundred hp.  John Deere has a lot of them.  they are variable displacement (swash plate) type pumps or motors. 
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

Rtqii

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2006, 05:12:38 AM »
I agree.  My brother owns a Case tractor with hydrostatic drive and it has a nice hyrdraulic powered snow blower that needs no less than 5 HP to operate. The drive requirements look exactly like what my compressor head needs.  The tractor has had a new short block, and a new clutch... But has never required any service of the hydraulics.

I have never seen a hydraulic powered shop and auxillaries from a stationary engine before. But I was thinking about how to solve this problem and I am settling in on a hydraulic drive for my engine room.

I had a dream awhile back when I started thinking about this: I saw myself caught in a belt. I felt the jerk and pull and just had time to think "uh oh" and everything went black.

A perfect system for me would be a central equipment mount for engine, flywheels, belts, pulleys, primary generator, and hydraulic pump. Conduit the utilities down thru the equipment mount block and under the floor. This leaves the walk around area clear of cables, lines, and hoses. Utilities overhead would include exhaust, air intake, and cooling system, which would be removable for overhead hoist operations. An elbow high gate cage with lift off sides would screen off the moving parts from the rest of the room. I can pour the foundation block with holes in the corners for inserting gate posts.

I was talking to an engine guy awhile back and he said much of the problem with light flicker and governor hunting were resolved by bigger flywheels, and he said that for pulling generators the bigger single cylinder engines worked well because of their massive flywheels. We talked about adding mass to the Lister type twin crankshaft to increase the stored angular momentum in the system and we both agreed the better solution was an auxillary flywheel on its own bearings.

An auxillary flywheel shaft with a clutch would be the ideal location to remove rotational energy from the system. I have heavy inductive loads balanced by capacitors that look like a dead short for a tangilble fraction of a second on startup, and pure inductive loads are planned, like an arc welder.  I am confident the engine will drive these loads easily once the rack gets opened up a notch, but these loads are "bumpy"; not smooth like a resistive load and you don't want the voltage drop and surging every time you energize a big welder core. It is hard to resolve governor issues that only present themselves during high load pulsed applications when both hands and eyes are occupied elsewhere. This type equipment can rob energy out of the flywheel virtually instantly and start right up, before the rack can respond to the load.

The flywheel need not be subject to engine vibration, especially if you pour separate (engine -|- load) block mounts with felt isolation padding between them. Run the engine belted to the flywheel shaft. Flywheels are simple machines, there is not too much to take care of or go wrong with, you put grease fittings on the bearings or add drip oilers.


http://peswiki.com/index.php/PowerPedia:Flywheels

The free shaft ends make an attractive mount for two opposing direct drives; and gears, pulleys, clutches, transmissions, hydraulic pumps, generators, whatever, can be run belted or direct shaft driven from either end of a flywheel shaft. Belted or geared loads can be placed on the shaft between bearings rather than being hung out on the end. 



http://www.novak-adapt.com/images/pics/clutch_disc.jpg

If you bolt together something like a 15 inch diameter truck or big tractor flywheel as part of the rotational mass, you get a starter gear and a clutch face. People will say something about efficiency, but a flywheel does not use much energy once up to speed, it is an inertial storage and energy transmission device. It makes the power supply look much bigger than it is when using loads that have high peak energy demands. The flywheel makes the system less elastic, counter balancing both engine and loads, giving and taking energy between them, smoothing out power delivery.

Since you can get cheap used flywheels in steel, it's easy to bolt up something ugly but heavy, static balance it, put a nice looking cover over it (bell housing?), and run it with a shaft speed of 1800 RPM. Direct drive the generator from one end of the shaft, and clutch the hydraulic pump off the other end.

The ability to use truck and tractor parts reduces the cost, and you can end up with a high performance flywheel system. Industry has advanced the technology, but the benefits are the same:

http://www.afstrinity.com/other-facts-faqs.html




« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 08:18:55 AM by Rtqii »

Rtqii

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2006, 07:02:22 AM »
http://www.acepumps.com/products/hydraulic.html

^^^ Hydraulic water pump.

http://www.tpub.com/basae/143.htm

^^ Hydrostatic drive trains

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FZX/is_12_70/ai_n8681022

^^ Hydrostatic hog - Liquid-cooled, three-cylinder Kubota D1105E diesel engine rated 25 hp: "The flat power curve works very well when combined with the hydrostatic drive. The majority of my driving is done with the engine at a low rpm."  - "The engine drives a 1.44 cu.in./rev Eaton piston pump with integral gerotor-style charge pump that is rigid-mounted to the frame."

Shifting: "The pump drives an Eaton 2000 series two-speed motor. The motor is shifted from low to high with the charge pump pressure. "Any time I apply 100 psi to the fourth port on the motor, its displacement changes from 8 to 4 cu.in., which gives me my high gear," said Parker."

The hydraulic system is kept clean by a 1 micron Donaldson Duramax spin-on filter--"yeah, it's overkill, but I just like really clean hydraulic oil," (http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=891.msg11244#msg11244)  Parker said--and a 1.75 gal. reservoir is positioned below the fuel tank. All of the hoses and fittings for the hydraulic and braking systems are from Aeroquip, which is one of the lines sold by Larkstur Engineering.

While you can't make a plow horse into a race horse, when you consider that the bike weighs some 725 lb. and utilizes a host of industrial components, the bike's top speed of 75 to 80 mph is more than respectable. "It accelerates much faster than I expected," Parker said. "And believe it or not, I can hold the front brake and do a huge burn out.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 10:00:04 AM by Rtqii »

Procrustes

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2006, 04:59:57 PM »
Here are some pictures of the hydrostatic motorcycle:
 
http://www.dieselkrad.info/index.php?main=dieselkrad&detail=high&id=93&bilder=hydrostatichog

Not bad looking.

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2006, 08:22:58 PM »
I was talking to an engine guy awhile back and he said much of the problem with light flicker and governor hunting were resolved by bigger flywheels, and he said that for pulling generators the bigger single cylinder engines worked well because of their massive flywheels. We talked about adding mass to the Lister type twin crankshaft to increase the stored angular momentum in the system and we both agreed the better solution was an auxillary flywheel on its own bearings.

An auxillary flywheel shaft with a clutch would be the ideal location to remove rotational energy from the system.


  Pretty close to what I plan to do.  Use my Listeroid as a mini-prime mover, couple it to a jackshaft (the auxliary shaft you describe) with flywheel mass approx. equal to the mass of the flywheels it already has, with the jackshaft supplying the bearing support.  Then pull from the Listeroid shaft, the jackshaft or an overhead line shaft as needed to do what I want to do.  Couple or decouple as needed. 
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

Rtqii

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2006, 10:09:21 PM »
Jackshaft... I am picking up new vocab every day!!!

Yeah, I need flexibility too, but I want to avoid overhead shafts and/or long belt runs off the eqipment mount if I can. As far as the flywheel mass, I think total flywheel energy is probably the thing to shoot for.  I suppose you could buy a pair of Listeroid flywheels and mount them up on a shaft, the rotational energy would be pretty close to that contained in the Lister crank at any given time. It could look pretty, but you are limited at how fast you can run the shaft.

A smaller mass of steel flywheels spinning at higher speed can contain more energy than the Lister crank at any given time, and the jackshaft energy would be available to loads at a higher rate.

What kind of mass were you thinking about using?

And to comment on the diesel hog... Yeah, that was an engineering project. Trying to pack all that in the frame of a motorcycle took some planning.

I am trying to lay my project out in my head and develop checklists of the engineering I am going to have to do. I want to use scrap and off-the shelf stuff and keep the custom machining down to a minimum... I may have to make some shaft couplers, I want to avoid having to make gears or splined shafts.

The motorcycle needs two speeds, everything I need to run with hydraulics can be set up to run at a single speed.... Where he uses the engine windup to increase the torque delivered, I can rob starting torque from a flywheel. I have been looking at truck and tractor parts for things like a bolt together flywheel mass (I need to spend a day cruising a good junkyard), and stuff like motorcycle clutches to add the hydraulic pump as a load (but wonder if one would handle the torque of a flywheel shaft).

My research on hydrostatic transmissions make me think I am better off using a separate pump and motor... I have seen some reconditioned tractor pumps priced at $250, but they don't give shaft speed specs... More reading to do yet before I can clearly point to something that would work efficiently.

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html

^^^ I am working my way thru this page.

Oh, and I wanted to note, hydraulic fluid makes a fine engine fuel and you can run hydraulics on vegitable oil.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006081018050704&item=9-1737-S&catname=

^^^ That is pricy, but you can belt, clutch, and transfer 20 HP thru that unit from everything I am reading.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006081018050704&item=9-7154-B&catname=

^^^ Assuming I can assemble a jackshaft with a clutched end... A pump like this _may_ do the job for $100. I think the place to start with something like this is with the pump. Match the pump to the power available, and get a generic type that you can replace inexpensively. I don't want to design a system around a tractor pump I don't think (unless it is free and in good condition).

I am looking at pump sizes based on the motocycle project. It would seem that a 1.44 cu in pump is pretty well matched to the 25 HP Kubota. The diesel hog used a pump with an integral charge pump and separate tank... I will need the separate tank, don't know (but don't think) I will need a charge pump. The demands and specs for hydrostatic drives are somewhat different than my intended applications.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006081018050704&item=9-1901-B&catname=

^^^ This is starting to look like what I will need: "Brand new, Prince, special non-symetrical gears give higher efficiency than conventional pumps. Alumninum body. Ideal replacement for many brands on tractors, other implements."

That's a generic pump, suitable for driving a tractor hydraulic system but not branded to any specific tractor. Reading thru the specs on a variety of pumps I find that I can expect to get a bit over 10 GPM at between 2-3 thousand PSI. 1800 RPM appears to be very suitable for a shaft speed in these pumps. I think the min shaft diameter should be 5/8, 3/4 would be even better... And shopping around you can find the same pumps manufactured with a variety of shaft types and in a few different sizes in this general range.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006081018050704&item=9-1827&catname=

^^^ Here's another pump, it would deliver over 15 GPM at 1800 RPM producing about 2500 PSI of pressure.

 http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006081018050704&item=9-1047-2-C&catname=hydraulic

^^^ For reference purposes, this PTO hydraulic unit is rated at Max. output: 11.4 GPM @ 2,000 PSI & 18.1 Hp input. 5.7 cu. in. displ. 2,250 PSI max



« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 01:55:34 AM by Rtqii »

dkwflight

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2006, 02:01:19 AM »
Hi

http://www.apevibro.com/asp/default.asp

They claim to be the largest user of Canola as hydrolic fluid!
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Rtqii

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2006, 02:39:32 AM »
http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/upload/db_documents_doc_10.pdf

^^^ Design and engineering info.

According to this, the reservoir requirments are V = 3 * Q * 1.1

Where V = Volume of the reservoir and Q = the flow rate of the pump in GPM.  For the pump I liked  Q = 15 GPM... V = 49.5

Nearly 50 gallons of oil to run a system to specs. Tank profile should be tall not broad. Tanks should be baffled, pickups should be off of the bottom (to allow contaminates to settle), return lines need drop pipes in the tank below the min oil level to prevent frothing. The tank should be elevated higher than the pump mount on the equipment block. 25 micron filtration required.

Hot water heater tank conversion to a hydraulic reservoir???

http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulic.htm

^^^ Hydraulic Reservoirs: Hydraulic reservoir sizing: One gallon of capacity per one GPM of pumping capacity.

That sounds much more reasonable. And more along the lines I envisioned... I am not going to be driving a lot of huge cylinders.

http://www.acepumps.com/products/roller.html

^^^ Bottom of the page, couplers for stepping down PTO shafts. This brings me back to the jackshaft specs. I need to plan on a shaft diameter for the flywheel mass, and something too thin will cause real problems.  Too big, and costs start to skyrocket for things like the shaft, couplers and pillow blocks.

The ST15kw has a 48 mm keyed shaft... which works out to 1.89 inches. The center of the jackshaft with flywheel mounts needs to be at least this diameter.... 2 inch center shaft with keyed slot to mount the flywheels???
« Last Edit: August 14, 2006, 08:03:17 PM by Rtqii »

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2006, 02:48:15 AM »
Rtqii,  Well maybe the same mass, maybe not.  The idea is to store as much energy as the Listeroid flywheels do.  Spinning lighter wheels faster would work.  I'm kinda thinking something like a piece of channel bent into a circle (with hollow to the inside) with spokes added to a hub, then fill the channel with lead.
  I remember a jackshaft as being a shaft that is parallel to the crankshaft, that you drive from the crankshaft with another gear (or whatever) to drive the final equipment.  Used a lot when gears weren't readily available and you needed to change the drive rpm.  Done a lot with overhead lineshafts driving a bunch of different equipment.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft   This describes some on locomotives. Esstential it's an intermediary shaft used when you can't get the driving element at the right position to run the driven element.  Used on go-carts to give a speed reduction using just chains and sprockets. Unfortunately I'm a good ways off from getting my place set-up.
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

Rtqii

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Re: Hydraulic PTO for auxillaries
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2006, 03:17:02 AM »
 ;D

What you are telling me is I need to head to a train boneyard with a hacksaw to get the piece of steel I need for this project ;)

http://www.nff-pump.com/pipe.htm <-- 2" high carbon 1045 & stainless shaft

http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_shafts.html

^^^ Soft steel keyed shafts by the inch. Prices are not too bad. "For maximum durability, we recommend your shafts be hardened by a heat-treating service once you have cut them to length and done any further machining." - I don't see any 2" stuff tho....

http://www.seshafting.com/services.html

^^^ Better

http://www.trukey.com/index.htm - http://www.dpbrown.com/shafting_4.htm - http://www.allmetalssupply.com/bar_products2.htm - http://www.keyshaft.com/ <- Custom machining

^^^ More

I think for this application I want something a little harder than untreated 1018. Most of these places are offering 1045 high carbon steel.

http://www.associatedsteel.com/pdf/23.pdf

^^^ Mirraloy FM Pre-Keyed exhibits up to 50% more tensile strength than 1018 carbon steel and up to 25 % more tensile strength than 1045. Not recommended for service where welding or additional thermal treatment will be required.

http://www.couplingcorp.com/

^^^ Direct drive couplers. Since the jackshaft will be mounted on it's own inertial block and the ST15kw can be grouted in after alignment, no flex coupling is required. Given the energy levels of this shaft/flywheel assembly, I don't want to risk a homemade coupler. Mounting a 48 mm shaft to a 2" shaft, I think specing out the correct coupler is a good idea rather than to try to jury rig something that is not a perfect fit, shimmed, bushed, etc.

http://www.mechaface.com/mf2prod.htm

^^^ Drive adapters for PTO and hydraulics

http://www.daytonsuperiorproducts.com/

^^^ Shaft clutches, couplers, collars

http://www.airtowater.com/compl.htm

^^^ Last entry on the page, item 99105 - 2" shafts.

http://www.hovercraft.com/content/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=57

^^^ Pillow blocks and shafts up to 1-1/2" - Pillow blocks are available from Surplus Center in 2" and they are regularly featured on ebay.

http://www.thebigbearingstore.com/ - http://www.bearingsdirect.com - http://www.bostongear.com

^^^ Bearings

http://www.cookssaw.com/shop/

^^^ Cooks Saw Mill: bearings, couplers, hydraulics, collars, SK bushings... He has good shaft stuff on specials: pulleys under $20

http://www.martinsprocket.com/ - Pulleys, sprockets, gears, SK bushings.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2006, 10:43:15 AM by Rtqii »