Puppeteer

Author Topic: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?  (Read 692 times)

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« on: February 21, 2020, 03:01:37 AM »
So, this seems like a really dumb, but really important question, if in fact it does matter.

I'm looking at a brand new copper gasket for my 6/1, and there's a slight difference between the sides.  One side has a bit of a ridge:



and the other side seems completely smooth:



Which side should face the sky, if it matters?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 03:03:34 AM by tyssniffen »
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1459
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 05:47:15 AM »
A copper gasket is just a thin sheet of copper.  Your pic seems to show some thick material in the middle ?

I think the consensus is that this style leaks easily, and that the style with RTV sealer around each hole and a crimped on fire ring for the cylinder, holds up well.

So I don't know which side goes up.

sirpedrosa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 08:40:55 AM »
Hi tyssniffen

Just look at here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg103752#msg103752

The original gaskets (and original Lister) has 2 large holes and guides to fit the gasket in correct way!

Cheers
VP
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 04:33:22 PM »
A copper gasket is just a thin sheet of copper.  Your pic seems to show some thick material in the middle ?

this is the style my machine came with, and what I've been told is the standard gasket.

I think the consensus is that this style leaks easily, and that the style with RTV sealer around each hole and a crimped on fire ring for the cylinder, holds up well.

Well, I've previously used this sort:


and had trouble with that as well.    I had one of those in place (perhaps not cranked down hard enough) but after sharing a photo of it, I got a lot of advice here https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8711.msg101309#msg101309  that it was the WRONG type.   Thus, I went back to the smooth copper. 


Just look at here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg103752#msg103752

The original gaskets (and original Lister) has 2 large holes and guides to fit the gasket in correct way!

Sorry, but I don't see this showing *which side* of the copper goes up.  It's not the orientation, as the studs and holes force a specific sitting... it's which side is up and which side is down - that's the question.
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

sirpedrosa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 05:50:33 PM »
Hi Tyss

Original ONLY can go one way.

And the side of the ridge stay faced down.

Cheers
VP
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 05:53:26 PM by sirpedrosa »
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3299
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 11:54:07 PM »

I have been using that copper spray sealer on head gaskets and am impressed with it.

Recently rebuilt a Subaru engine which subsequently suffered a radiator failure and got overheated. Usually stuffs the head gaskets on these engines and requires replacement. Some clever people can do them in car, the frustration of working in such a tight area isn't worth it to me so it's engine out again and another $300+ worth of gaskets.
 I put plenty of copper on those gaskets and they appear to have survived. More than I would have expected otherwise. 

As water seepage appears to be a problem on some Lister engines, It might be worth giving them a hit with this stuff. Isn't exactly cheap but seems to work well and truly as advertised in my experience.

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2020, 04:55:25 PM »
Hi Tyss

Original ONLY can go one way.

And the side of the ridge stay faced down.


THIS is what I wanted to know.   The completely smooth side goes up, the side with the slight ridge goes down. 
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2020, 04:56:25 PM »
As water seepage appears to be a problem on some Lister engines, It might be worth giving them a hit with this stuff. Isn't exactly cheap but seems to work well and truly as advertised in my experience.

I soaked my last one (perhaps put in the wrong way up??) with copper spray, and still had problems.  I will soak it again.
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

sirpedrosa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2020, 07:39:40 PM »
Hi Tyss

Original ONLY can go one way.

And the side of the ridge stay faced down.


THIS is what I wanted to know.   The completely smooth side goes up, the side with the slight ridge goes down.


Hi Tyss

Have you seen my thread as I told you?


Here, again. Pay attention - PLEASE: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg103752#msg103752

What do you see? Honestly!

Cheers
VP
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227

tyssniffen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2020, 09:43:23 PM »
Well, if youíre really asking - I see 1 picture of a copper gasket- that looks like it goes to. A 12/2, with unique sized holes based on the stud bases... so I know that gasket isnít the same as the one in my hand, so itís impossible to know if that 12/2 had the same ridge as mine, making the whole post impossible to learn from.
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

sirpedrosa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2020, 11:32:19 PM »
Tyss

I give up, really...
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227

glort

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3299
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2020, 06:33:08 AM »
Well, if youíre really asking - I see 1 picture of a copper gasket- that looks like it goes to.

I'm buggered if I can see anything there that would answer your question either so don't feel like it's just you!   ::)

sirpedrosa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 08:20:14 AM »
Gentles

"The worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see", says a popular saying.

If the help didn't help, I gave the best help I have.

If it wasn't the best, I don't have another one. A different one, I just have a little prayer to ask wisdom to the lord.

Stay safe
VP

PS: By the way Bob (aka Ajaffa1) gave an interview asking for bricks and cement to help rebuilding his home, and others too. Maybe he got better opinion about that gasket.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 08:22:41 AM by sirpedrosa »
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227

AdeV

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 09:13:14 PM »
Hi Tyss

Original ONLY can go one way.

And the side of the ridge stay faced down.


THIS is what I wanted to know.   The completely smooth side goes up, the side with the slight ridge goes down.

I really don't think it matters, certainly not in these engines.

The ridge is there to provide an extra good seal between the cylinder barrel and the head, as it has to contain the combustion gases (it's called the fire ring). The rest of the gasket only has to hold back water. It's been a while since I looked at a Lister CS head, but IIRC it's basically completely flat, with holes for the combustion chamber and valves. So it'll squidge down extra hard around the ring whichever way up the ring is. It goes without saying, I hope, that both the top of the barrel and the face of the head must be absolutely spotlessly clean and smooth and flat to within a couple of thou (0.002"), otherwise you'll not make a good seal. There's no good reason not to use a little gasket sealant around the waterways, just make sure you go the right side of the bolts...

Interesting thread here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?p=76638

Apparently the fire ring can, in fact, indent the head (although that being a Ford forum, I don't know if they're talking about aluminium or cast iron), their recommendation is fire ring up, because it's easier to resurface the head if it gets dented. Probably also true of a Lister; but also, probably not a problem for a 6hp lazy diesel.

Of course, if one had a 12/2, one could do the experiment by installing the gaskets opposite ways up on each cylinder, and trying it out. Should anyone wish to ship me a 12/2, I will sacrifice the time to do the experiment, in the interests of science, obviously :)


Cheers,
Ade.
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

sirpedrosa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 480
  • 21NOV2019 - Finally I hear that sound
    • View Profile
Re: gasket for the 6/1 - which side up? - FWIW
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2020, 10:54:29 PM »
Gentles

FWIW - cylinder head gaskets of original CS Lister (single or twin [2xsingle]) ONLY can go one way - because there are no symmetrical faces, unless you open new guide holes

Cheers
VP
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227