Big end oiling

[hotater]

EVguru---

All good points.  Where would you reccomend looking for the underlying problem?  That's what we're trying to figure out.

[cujet]

Hotater has brought up a bunch of good points here.

There is one I think I would like to address.

The grit and sand that exists on each and every part in the Listeroid must be removed. I cleaned every part in the regular method (parts cleaner) But I discovered that small quantities of casting grit exist after cleaning. Maybe the better solution is to Sandblast the crankcase to bare metal. Then clean and paint. I found a bunch of grit under the pistons, (that black coating is 100% grit). It could be that glass beading each and every part is necessary.

Chris

[hotater]

Chris---

Think  "shot peening" not sandblasting or glass beading.  Both those are abrasive and leave abrasive residue.

Shotpeening uses small steel balls to break away the crust of sand and peen the pourosity in the castings closed, or nearly so.  Once the shot peening is complete it's washed and dried and then painted with a heavy coat of something tried and proven for THAT purpose.

Look at hydraulic fittings and farm implements to see examples of a shot peened finish....it's a lustrous, overall dark gray.

I think parts treated as above will be superior to even the best of the newly imported kits, which are VERY well done, but I don't *know* how well done because I didn't do it.   

FWIW---  My Listeroid has been running more than forty hours with straight 30W oil, and two used but cleaned bottom rod bearings WITHOUT the upper shell drilled for the oil holes, but with a hollow dipper no wider than 'standard Listeroid'.
  So I cut all oiling from the holes in the top of the rod and only oil by hollow dipper on the bottom.  The big end heat is the same, 140 or so, the existing knock is reduced, and it's making power right now.

[Geno]

If there are any big eng issues then they have to be down more to journal and bearing issues, rather than oiling, although an engine can of course knock if the injection timing is wrong. As I recall the CS manual calls for a big end clearance of 3 thou, maximum! The big end shims are NOT for adjusting the clearance, but for adjusting the bearing 'nip' which holds the shells securely into the rod.

All this playing about with hollow dippers etc. is all very well, but it may just be masking an underlying problem that should be solved first.

Has anyone brought their crank, rod and bearings to a quality machine shop, machinist, or old engine guru who really knows how to sort out the bottom end. Originals ran and still run for years without any of the issues I read about so often. Does anyone here have access to the equipment and experience to determine the quality?

We do hear a lot more about problem runners here than good ones and there are plenty of Indian runners out there.

Thanks, Geno

[mobile_bob]

been doing a bit more research and reading on dipper fed big end oiling, and generally old engines

seems as though the general recommendation as of 1939 was to run you new car no more than 500 miles and then to have the oil pan removed so as to clean out...

1. swarf, left over machine cuttings that found there way down into the pan

2. Casting sand! the was referred to as inevitable!

3. dirt, from the assembly process,

4. sludge and varnish.

this was the recommedation for american made automobiles and trucks. funny they dealt with much the same issues as the
indian listeroids.

i am still working on the dipper design, and have most all the parts made up an ready to assemble, soon as i can spare a bit of time to do so.

the design incorporates the following
1. check valve
2. filter
3. pressure accumulator, for a second shot of oil when the dipper is out of the oil
4. air purge function to reduce of eliminate the air that is taken up the tube when it is out of the oil
5. much higher volume of oil delivered, (target is between 5 and 10 times the amount delivered by the top holes)

concerns that have to be addressed

1. the unit has to be light weight
2. the unit has to be strong
3. the unit has to be servicable, the filter will have to be serviced
4. the unit has to work

it has taken not a small amount of thought and design to address all the above, but i think i have it.

the ability to have a larger amount of clean oil fed to the big end brg under pressure, coupled with the use of
a set of brgs that have the needed needed characteristics to form and support the oil hydraulic wedge should
provide a much longer life of the big end.  provided that.

1. the clearance of the brg is proper
2. the finish of the crank journal is of a high quality, and of course round, and true in all respects
3. the crankcase is cleaned out to start with
4. 30 weight oil is used

the bottom line is no engine will last as long as one would like useing an egg shaped crank, poorly finished, wrong oil, and sand.

is this dipper design necessary, probably not if all else is right to start with.

the main advantage that i think is a foregone conclution is having a filter would be a benefit.
the rest of the design simply provides a more consistant amount of oil under pressure.

very close

i do have one question, how long are the dippers that folks are drilling to make hollow, from the bottom of the rod cap to the end? and how long are they overall?

bob g

[xyzer]

...simple dipper here...This is based on a stock paddel slapper...

Dave

[Twinscrew]

Create a channel down through the dipper and then a port on the face of the dipper that contacts the crankcase oil during crankshaft rotation.

This is what I originally proposed. Thanks xyzer, for the illustration.

Bob your "active" dipper complete with filter would probably be ideal ,albeit, the most complex piece on the entire engine. However, wouldn't the hollow dipper supplying, say 100% more oil than stock be sufficient? No amount of oil is going to save a big end that is egg shaped or otherwise out of spec.