Big end oiling

[mobile_bob]

i would like to clarify a bit more if i could

we are working with listeroids here, not ferrari's,,,, but...

as with ferrari's everyone wants one, but they are in short supply, hard to get ... yes?

as opposed to a 5 hp briggs and stratton.. which are like weeds, they are everywhere.

this discussion is based on that which was started by Darren to fairly significantly increase both power and
efficiency of the base engine. some of the alterations may damage parts or kill the engine, it is yet to be determined.
personally if you want to test theories, i wish you would kill briggs engines. and save the listeroid iron for those that need it.

i don't care who i offend when i say the following.

if you want to ruin your motor fine, if you think you are better at backyard engineering than those that developed the original, again fine.

if you want to set back and jab at those of us that want a more responcible and careful approach, that too is fine.

just don't drag a new guy down the drain with you, because he read something you said and tried it without first knowing it to be fact rather than fiction or a product of your dreams, thinking, wishing, intuition, or whatever.

the least you could do is preface your position as being experimental or theoretical , so that a new guy could use proper caution while reading your posts

bob g

[Andre Blanchard]

yes and then there are those that just walk across without looking either direction

<< snip >>
bob g

Has to be good for 3 points. 

[snail]

Sorry to break up a good discussion, but :

a/ or you could simply copy the original Lister design, which was good for in excess of 100k hours on a set of shells.

or you could use the other original Lister design which is a hollow dipper,approx 11/64 ID, 5/16 OD, chamfered to an acute 20 degree angle.Any idea why they used these on the twins but not the singles?
Does anyone have a photo of the splash plate (check the parts list) which was also exclusive to the singles? What problem were they trying to fix?

Cheers

Brian

[xyzer]

This is what I did to mine. I didn't do much research but it sure looked like it should have been done this way. The oil grooves in the rod cap were yelling at me give me oil! The one on the right is Indian style.

[mobile_bob]

xyzer:

i like it,,

do they screw into the rod cap? i assume?

if so i can see those doing a much better job of getting oil under moderate pressure up the rod brg,
pretty nice

bob g

[xyzer]

Bob,
Yes it screws into the rod cap and there is a locating boss that goes through into the bearing. It helps locates the rod bearing and keeps it from rotating. The one on the right is the original splash job.
Dave

[mobile_bob]

that is what i thought,,,

now if one could replace the upper brg shell with a  unit without holes and grooves
you could get a superior brg with a continuous oil wedge to support it.

i really like it now..

NOTE THE FOLLOWING IS THEORETICAL AND UNPROVEN:
so much so, that i will incorporate this into my 25/2 if i can come up with plain brg shells for the top half
failing availability of the plain upper half, i think i would fill the holes and grooves in the upper shells with lead tin alloy
this would keep the oil wedge unbroken over the top of the crankpin, thus should provide a better load brg capacity.
this would appear to be superior to the catch hole on top of the rod directing oil into the upper brg, where the rotational
forces tend to pump the oil back out.

END THEORETICAL

i really ,,, really like it...

Darren this is probably all  you need to assure big end oil, and assure your success with added stress of turbocharging.

bob g

[snail]

Xyzer
      Nice to see someone's experiments in detail.You may have been a bit on the conservative side with the hole size.The way Mr lister did it ended up with an oval hole 11/64 by about 9/16. If you stretched   your opening (no, the one in the dipper! ) "upwards" with a slot drill ( or your preferred tool) you'd have something similar, if not better than the original.
      Got the engine and camera here at work but no software otherwise I could show you!

Cheers,

Brian

[Twinscrew]

This is what I did to mine. I didn't do much research but it sure looked like it should have been done this way. The oil grooves in the rod cap were yelling at me give me oil! The one on the right is Indian style.

Thanks Xyzer. An open and objective mind was all that was required to implement mechanical innovation. And the best part is that Mobile Bob approves. How could this be a bad thing?

[slowspeed1953]

that is what i thought,,,

now if one could replace the upper brg shell with a  unit without holes and grooves
you could get a superior brg with a continuous oil wedge to support it.

i really like it now..

NOTE THE FOLLOWING IS THEORETICAL AND UNPROVEN:
so much so, that i will incorporate this into my 25/2 if i can come up with plain brg shells for the top half
failing availability of the plain upper half, i think i would fill the holes and grooves in the upper shells with lead tin alloy
this would keep the oil wedge unbroken over the top of the crankpin, thus should provide a better load brg capacity.
this would appear to be superior to the catch hole on top of the rod directing oil into the upper brg, where the rotational
forces tend to pump the oil back out.

END THEORETICAL

i really ,,, really like it...

Darren this is probably all  you need to assure big end oil, and assure your success with added stress of turbocharging.

bob g

i think your on to something with the removal of the upper shell hole. Although for my engine I think I will keep the grooves in the upper shell as I think that they serve as a resiviour for the oil when the dipper is in the up position and the centrifical force is acting to throw the oil out of the dipper.

Peace&Love , Darren

[hotater]

I'll let you all know later today if the addition of bottom shell oiling helps a knocking engine.  The lathe is warming up now.

Instead of a 'scoop' I'm going to do a 'hollow hoof' design by drilling all the way through and then angling the bottom so it hits the sump oil more or less square.

 It might be possible by sound alone to determine if --

A) More oil goes to the crankpin and,
B) Is it enough to do any good building more oil pressure in the bearing.

[hotater]

Oiling the bottom helps!!

Folks-- The Indians may have taken one too many shortcuts.

I drilled a .155" hole all the way through the oil dipper and cut the bottom to about a 10 deg. angle so the bottom 'face' of the dipper struck the oil flat. I centerdrilled the bottom so there is a considerable 'funnel' into the smaller hole. (think about a horse pawing. The angles are about the same.)

I packed the new dipper hole with assembly lube thinking if the 'pressure' of hitting the oil was not enough to pump oil into the bearing the assembly lube would still be there after a minute of running. I cranked the engine and stopped it ten seconds later without hearing a knock. I pulled the dipper and it was clean all the way through, so something is traveling 'somewhere'!

The engine is NOTICIBLY quieter. It could be these engines are supposed to use bottom oiling instead of top? OR should have both? OR adding oil to the bottom of the crankpin just helps take up space?

[GuyFawkes]

Oiling the bottom helps!!

Folks-- The Indians may have taken one too many shortcuts.

I drilled a .155" hole all the way through the oil dipper and cut the bottom to about a 10 deg. angle so the bottom 'face' of the dipper struck the oil flat. I centerdrilled the bottom so there is a considerable 'funnel' into the smaller hole. (think about a horse pawing. The angles are about the same.)

I packed the new dipper hole with assembly lube thinking if the 'pressure' of hitting the oil was not enough to pump oil into the bearing the assembly lube would still be there after a minute of running. I cranked the engine and stopped it ten seconds later without hearing a knock. I pulled the dipper and it was clean all the way through, so something is traveling 'somewhere'!

The engine is NOTICIBLY quieter. It could be these engines are supposed to use bottom oiling instead of top? OR should have both? OR adding oil to the bottom of the crankpin just helps take up space?

err, am I right in deducing from this that the dipper on listeroids is ___JUST___ a sort of paddle meant to knock oil flying around, and the ONLY oil feed to the big end is what may or may not trickle through the con rod into the upper shell?

that can't be right, but I can't see what else you're saying here.

[xyzer]

In my opinion the Indians left that part out! It looks to me with the oil grooves in the bottom bearing were designed to add more lubrication....also be carefull when you install it ...... adjust the dipper so it won't contact the rod journal. Also I believe mine was a whitworth thread....really a bastard size....Learned that from my MGTD days..... I think you could stand back and throw a dipper  hole at it and improve things. I figured it would be in oil maybe 5-6" of the arc. It would only need maybe 3" or less depending on the velosicty to force the oil up the 1-1/2" long dipper tube. I wouldn't build another one without it!

Guy look at the pic in my previous post...the one on the right is nothing but a oil slapper!

[mobile_bob]

that is exactly what they have done,,, this bogus idea of kicking oil up to drain down the rod and into the holes on top...

i dont like it.....

been thinking more about this,,,

i would assume that the upper shell can be placed in the bottom position and the lower moved to the up position.

at least then the upper brg would be nearly complete, save for the dipper hole

then redrill a hole in the lower shell for the dipper tube,,,

then you would have an oil wedge going up and over the rod as it should be.

THEORY HERE:

my thinking is the amount of brg material removed for the two upper holes and the grooves, dramatically reduces the
brg surface, and interupts the oil wedge, allowing the pressure that is built up by the wedge to bleed off into these grooves
this alteration would follow sound engineering practice of every engine that i am aware of today.

END THEORY

thoughts?

bob g