Author Topic: Big end oiling  (Read 28652 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #60 on: August 11, 2006, 09:34:08 PM »
please pack mine in sand,,, :)

seems like the thing to do.... be sure to sell em,,, and attach your name to em...
so we can bitch at you forever...

:)

i would be interested in a couple

bob g
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Twinscrew

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #61 on: August 11, 2006, 10:01:53 PM »
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Yesterday I slotted my dipper and filed a 'hook' on the bottom so it scoops up oil.   The engine knock was less pronounced.  I shut the engine down and reversed the direction of the 'scoop'.  The knock came back.  Reversed the scoop and it's noticibly quieter.
And shadetree quantified it is! It seems that the only test left the fatigue cycles of the modified dipper. Shadetree test procedure would dictate run 'er until a knock reappears, open the hatch, see if it broke. Bob, still approve? He he he.....

Twinscrew

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #62 on: August 11, 2006, 10:07:24 PM »
Oops. I almost forgot about measuring decrease in efficiency due to increased drag of modified dipper through the oil. Just kiddn' Bob. ;)

Tom

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2006, 12:03:06 AM »
And don't forget to measure the the efficiency change due to the aerodynamic differences in the new vs. old design. Oh no we also need to figure how the balance is changed too. This is to deep and my head is going into a spin.  ;)
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Twinscrew

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #64 on: August 12, 2006, 02:27:43 AM »
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There are situations that require quantification, as in "would this vehicle get us safely to the moon?", and then there are sitautions where a little common sense will allow you to accurately predict the results of an action, without quantification, before the action takes place.
I had to track back through the mud that we recently slung at each to retrieve this quote. I aplogise to anyone that I have offended here lately, specifically Guy Fawkes. I believe he could possibly one of the most intellegent folks that I have ever crossed passed with. Things started to get pretty bloody, and for that I'm sincerely sorry.That being said, let's summarize this thread. What took place here is that a cornern was raised about lubrication of the connecting rod bearing and how it could be increased in a Liseroid. The think tank that makes up this forum, made up of educated, as well as uneducated people stepped up and offered proposed solutions. A design improvement was proposed, made and implemented in less than 24 hours. And there is even talk of a production run of parts. This modification costs virtually nothing and can be made whether you own a Bridgeport or a Dremel. This modification has the potential to greatly increase an engines sevice intervals as well as part service life. All it took was a little ingenuity to do something that the Indians overlooked. This doesn't have to end. All it takes is some vision and implementation. What could be wrong with that?

mobile_bob

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #65 on: August 12, 2006, 03:01:02 AM »
" What could be wrong with that?"

not a darn thing!

it makes the debate all the more worthwhile,,, even when it comes to a knock down drag out.

i look at it like this, i don't care if i get a black eye, or a bloody lip if something useful comes of it.
and i don't suspect i am in the minority on this point.

i know as americans we are brought up to try and be polite, not say anything if we dont have something good to say and all that.

contrast that with british parliment (sp), those guys heckle, scream and raise all kind of crap, and have a no holds barred approach to debate,,, after which a consensus is reached and i am sure the enemies go out and have a cold one after the action at their local pub (or is it a warm one?)

the scientific community is another, they beat the shit out of each other in words, and near fist fights as well... so before anyone presents anything he is very researched in his/her position and expects to be blasted.

at the end of the day, i think most all of us on this board could sit down to a cold one beit beer or soda pop and have a good laugh at all the fun... i know i would.

i also would like to see a time we could all get together at some sort of convention, perhaps have a keynote speaker, such as Guy or some other crusty old fart that knows the history of these engine's. Maybe have other folks address the group on other facets such as importing, parts suppliers, manufactures etc.  i know i would want to attend.

we could even have and area with whacky folks and all the wild ass theories :)

other folks do it ,, and i don't see why this group couldnt put together an event at some point in the future.

mean time, i am absolutely excited at the progress that i have seen in the short while i have been a member. i look forward to more vigorous debate and finding more solutions to the benefit of all.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

xyzer

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #66 on: August 12, 2006, 05:56:11 AM »
Dippers...I got my factory supplied dipper out to check the threads out and like I figured my Indian dipper is a British Standard Fine Thread.

Major dia=.3125 (5/16)
       TPI=22

At least that is what I came up with and it sorta figures those brits have left there mark everywhere! If any of you have access to your dippers check out the threads and post your results. I can make different threads during the run easy and I won't set it back up again.
Dave
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snail

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2006, 03:23:23 AM »
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OK, I give up.  WHAT is that channel and what does it do besides catch oil and severely interfer with mopping out the sump?

There are two of these cast in under the rods of the dursley products. The (clever) idea seems to be to maintain a constant oil supply to the rods despite varying oil levels in the sump. The troughs are filled from the oil pump and will remain full provided the oil pickup stainer is below the oil level. The mains are also pump fed so the same applies there.
 If you don't have this trough,big end lube is purely by splash so the oil level has to be fairly precise. With the trough, you could theoretically get away with 1/2 pint of oil in the sump ( Dont' try this at home without adult supervision ;))
 The singles have a different system which achieves the same ends: The area under the rod is above the level of the strainer for the whole width of the casting. Have a look at any of the single manuals (Guys has it) for the cross section of the motor.
My powerline doesn't  have the troughs, do roid singles have the split level sump? Where does the splash plate fit into all this?

The rod photo is of the Dursley variety. With the flat dipper, those holes are all you have( unless someone has other evidence). Does anyone have even the vaguest of ideas ( no top fuel, PLEASE ::) why the singles need less big end lube than the twins?


Cheers,

Brian



al riley

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2006, 04:43:28 AM »
the 216 chevy 6 had 6 throughs kept full by the pump that the rod dippers scooped from .

I would like to hear from higher hour lister owners as 24-7 use piles up the hours
do they really go 100000 hours? with just routene maint?

hotater

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2006, 04:53:55 AM »
al--

I don't think the Listeroids have been in imported for 100,000 hours.  That's eleven years!

The foundation is there. The specifics of how to best set it up for the longest life is not yet complete.

I'd suggest buying George's CD at uttterpower.com for the tips and hints and some alterations that may have to be made to get the longest life out of them.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

oldnslow

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #70 on: August 15, 2006, 07:00:59 PM »
If the hollowed out dipper could be fitted with a check valve, it might hold pressure and keep/pump more oil to the bearing. ??
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #71 on: August 15, 2006, 07:59:37 PM »
I would be reluctant to try to put a check valve inside the dipper tube, after-all, it might be forced closed by centifugal force? (closed going into the oil, opened across the top?)
About the troughs under the dippers; This would be a good way to assure clean oil to the rods. I modified my engine to have a full flow oil filter, but the rods still get whatever dirty oil is in the sump. The oil pump fills these dipper troughs, so in my case (if my engine was made with troughs) the rods would get clean oil. I like that idea. But I think these engines had a large lower sump that my engine does not have. LISTEROID cost cutting program..?
I would like to find a bearing shell that does not have any grooves or holes in it. The previously posted pictures show just what I have. My dipper tube is cut different, but not significantly. The lower bearing shell cuts distribute the oil from the dipper tube, that's good. The upper shell has those Y cuts, and also shows the damage they can cause because of the reduced bearing area and oil exit holes. (by my way of thinking).
The oil throw off from the sides of the bearing and the dipper should lube the cylinder / wristpin and cool the piston crown OK unless Cradawg puts a turbo on it.... ;)
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

xyzer

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #72 on: August 15, 2006, 08:05:18 PM »
If the hollowed out dipper could be fitted with a check valve, it might hold pressure and keep/pump more oil to the bearing. ??
I have thought of that but I feel it would restrict the flow and be a failure point.....With the original dipper it has pressure for 1/4ish of revolution and is a way big improvement over the no dipper! IMHO.......for what thats worth
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Andre Blanchard

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #73 on: August 15, 2006, 08:27:55 PM »
Something like this may work.
http://www.mne.psu.edu/me415/fall04/APC2/
But the flow in the reverse direction may not be enough to make any difference.


More info.
http://www.google.com/search?hs=c23&hl=en&lr=&client=opera&rls=en&q=%22Valvular+Conduit%22&btnG=Search
« Last Edit: August 15, 2006, 08:31:43 PM by Andre Blanchard »
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Andre' B

EVguru

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Re: Big end oiling
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2006, 05:27:42 PM »
I have two original Lister CS Start-O-Matic engines and both have just a knife edged dipper. I also have the rod out of a third S-O-M and that too only has a knife edge. The dipper on a JKson engine is much cruder and would most likely throw more oil around, although much of the extra might not be in the right place. The Indian engines also miss the sheet metal splash guard of the original engines.

If there are any big eng issues then they have to be down more to journal and bearing issues, rather than oiling, although an engine can of course knock if the injection timing is wrong. As I recall the CS manual calls for a big end clearance of 3 thou, maximum! The big end shims are NOT for adjusting the clearance, but for adjusting the bearing 'nip' which holds the shells securely into the rod.

All this playing about with hollow dippers etc. is all very well, but it may just be masking an underlying problem that should be solved first.