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Author Topic: EPA Regulations  (Read 1978 times)

LowGear

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2020, 05:09:02 PM »
The world is transitioning.  There are solar systems without generators showing up more frequently as time marches by.  Just like cars.  If I had suggested 15 years ago that there would be battery powered autos not too uncommon on the road you would have been doubtful.  Today it is a fact.  Ten years ago if I reported that there were battery based solar homes you would have held the same doubt.

I'm offering one of the reasons, a growing one, that our old (technologically for sure) friends are losing their market share and popularity.  Perhaps we could write a science fiction movie about the remaining people being saved by a Lister diesel generating enough electricity to keep the incandescent lights on in the growing warehouse to feed and maintain the circadian rhythms to maintain life.
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StrawHat

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2020, 07:42:31 AM »
I think many are missing the simple and obvious about why EPA regs seek to outlaw the Listeriods. Our gubberment doesn't want anyone living off grid! Why? Simply put, they make tax money on every watt you buy off the grid. That's it!

AdeV

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2020, 07:59:49 AM »
Any tips on where to get panels cheap?

Australian dumpsters, by the sounds of it!  :laugh:

As Ironic as your well meaning sarcasm is Ade, You are dead right!

Wasn't sarcasm - just wry humour :)


The hard to get bits are the inverters. Panels last decades, the early inverters were lucky to last 5 years and here thanks to the wonderfully beneficial ( to me) laws, If an inverter goes belly up you can't replace it.
Well you can, but only with the same inverter.... which being 5+ years old of course are long obsolete and out of production so you have to install an entire new system. This is where pretty much all my panels have come from bar the last lots.


Good effing grief. Just when I think we must have reached peak Government stupidity - along comes something which proves me dead wrong. So basically, the laws in Australia (or your bit of it at least) mean that if a 5-year-old inverter goes pop, you have to rip off panels which would be good for at least another 20 years, because you can't change inverter?!?! No wonder you're finding stacks of good used panels for nuppence. I bet there's a rule the panels can't be re-sold either.

Panels here in the UK are still relatively expensive, and you very very rarely see 2nd hand ones on the market - I think our gov't would rather see existing panels in service as long as possible, and the electrical side being as modern as possible... so no such rule here.

Then again, we get the square root of bugger all in the way of sunshine, compared with most of Oz. We'd be better off with micro hydro systems in our drainpipes I reckon...
Cheers!
Ade.
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glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2020, 10:58:03 AM »

Wasn't sarcasm - just wry humour :)
 Yes, my description was poor but I understood the tongue in cheek.  :0)

Quote
So basically, the laws in Australia (or your bit of it at least) mean that if a 5-year-old inverter goes pop, you have to rip off panels which would be good for at least another 20 years, because you can't change inverter?!?!

Yes, precisely Correct.
The reason is they keep updating the rules and regulations, under the guise of saftey, so that any system over about 3 years or less, are non compliant for repair or re-installation.
The regs are laughable and a poorly veiled guise to keep the solar industry ticking over when they know the majority saturation is already reached bar newer homes in the main.

The regs cover inane things like mounting points, isolation, isolators, earthing and other things that have never been a problem... Bar the isolators which through newer regs have been a major failure point known to have caused dozens of fires.
The rules and regs are virtually endless but there are a number of well known conflicts... You comply with one part of the regs and you violate another and it's impossible to meet both rules which apply to the same installation.

You are allowed to have 7-10 yo system as long as it is original. The minute you touch anything, you are required to bring it up to current regs.... which is impossible on an old system as it encompasses every part of the system so you are forced to start again.  You cannot have an old system and Improve it with a new inverter which is currently compliant, you have to scrap the entire system ( which covers mounting, electrical) etc and start again.

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No wonder you're finding stacks of good used panels for nuppence. I bet there's a rule the panels can't be re-sold either.

You can SELL used panels, but you can't re install them on a grid tied system... Unless they are  Under 2 YO Atm ( time since latest Regs came in).  You can use them on an off grid system, Provided it is below 90? ( not sure) volts which is classed as a low voltage system.  UNLESS the panels comply to current regs and are on the latest approval list ( which not all panels may be on anyway) you cannot legally install them on a grid tie system.

That makes my system non compliant on a number of fronts.

Firstly the panels are not compliant at the time of install. Secondly, I am not an approved SOLAR installer which is an extra qualification for a sparky and of course entails extra licensing and fees. Many Dodgy companies get around this having back backers do the install and mounting and then having a ( supposed) qualified sparky hook them up.  My mate made the mistake of having a Dodgy mob do his install and the sparky admitted he had 15 Min training.

The system didn't work and 2 more morons were sent out over 3 months before I looked at it and fixed the errors and got at going.
That's not bragging in anyway, it's a concession of the pathetic nature of the people who did the job.  Connecting panels is much like connecting extension leads. The are male and female, they only fit one way but these clowns still managed to muck it up.
There was also the unbelievable mistake of mixing the active, neutral and earth wires on the breakers. They are double sided on the RCD's and that was cocked up.

Pretty sad when the very people they are trying to prevent working on this stuff because they are untrained and unqualified can do it right where the so called qualified people can't .

My systems are also non compliant because of the way I have insulated and isolated my systems.  By insulating parts of it beyond regulations ( safer), they are rendered non compliant. Same as I use double gang breakers on the AC side which also makes the system  non compliant but in fact safer in certain and practical fault situations. I also mount them Direct on the roof instead of compliant railing where each and every panel is earthed..... and so it goes.

Really more of an advantage to me than a disadvantage because being non compliant on anything means I can do whatever I want... and it's still non compliant.  :0)
I over clock inverters by over 100% where the regs specify only 33%. This is clearly an attempt to limit the amount of feed in credits people can get from the power co's. I feed back more than the allowable per phase even though the wiring is actually oversized for what I'm putting through it.

I have odd arrays on an inverter.  Regs say they are supposed to be the same panels, qty and therefor watts/ Voltage.  Makes no difference at all to the inverters but again more of an attempt to stop people upgrading older systems with newer panels. 
They say it's all safety but in fact it's all bullshit aimed at limiting the amount of power can be self sufficient in and get back as feed in credits.

What they are desperately trying to stop is people like me.... People having enough power and feedin to stop getting a Nil Bill or the power company owing them.
Currently you are allowed up to 6.6kw of panels  on a 5Kw inverter on single phase and 13Kw of panels on a 10 Kw inverter on 3 phase.  SOME few people can get a feedback payment from the power co but having a compliant system big enough is a major investment that takes generally around 5 years before any returns start.
Even a 10Kw System where I am would be pushing to do 60Kwh on a good day.  My record is 84Kwh well before summer solstice.

That's not what the power companies want... people whom aren't paying them revenue.

The travesty of wasting  completely good useable  panels while promoting the virtues of renewable energy is just another hypocrisy of the green movement and Big Biz.

I have acquired well over 180 panels now all up and so far to my knowledge, 2 are Faulty.  They still generate good power, however they have hot spots so I removed them from the grid arrays and have used them for low voltage and experimentation.






Panels here in the UK are still relatively expensive, and you very very rarely see 2nd hand ones on the market - I think our gov't would rather see existing panels in service as long as possible, and the electrical side being as modern as possible... so no such rule here.

Then again, we get the square root of bugger all in the way of sunshine, compared with most of Oz. We'd be better off with micro hydro systems in our drainpipes I reckon...

guest25219

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2020, 11:00:04 AM »
Panels here in the UK are still relatively expensive, and you very very rarely see 2nd hand ones on the market - I think our gov't would rather see existing panels in service as long as possible, and the electrical side being as modern as possible... so no such rule here.

Then again, we get the square root of bugger all in the way of sunshine, compared with most of Oz. We'd be better off with micro hydro systems in our drainpipes I reckon...

Just a slight difference in specific yield  ;D

glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2020, 07:08:45 AM »

I don't understand that chart at all!
It sees to indicate areas closer to the equator get less solar  radiation than those further further away.
It also seems to also indicate  locations of the same longitude can get less radiation than others.
From the way I'm reading it, some coastal areas seem to get less radiation than inland.

Might have a lot to learn but this certainly goes against my understanding.

AdeV

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2020, 01:07:35 PM »
From the way I'm reading it, some coastal areas seem to get less radiation than inland.

Coastal areas tend to have more cloud cover than non-coastal; especially if there's hilly/mountainous land close to the coast (e.g. North Wales). So whilst the solar flux (is that the right word?) is just as strong as anywhere else on that lattitude, it mostly bounces off the top of the clouds...
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LowGear

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2020, 05:12:33 PM »
I can't believe the amount of gain my solar system is putting out now compared to two years ago when we were having VOG (Volcano generated SMOG).  It is amazing.

We face the same forced obsolescence here in Hawaii.  I wouldn't be able to put my inverter on a system seeking licensing today even though being twelve years old it's purring right along.  This regulation is just a door stop the Hawaii Electric Company uses to discourage wider use of solar.  It is not a function of government code.

At the same time if I increase my system size I must switch from a watt for watt exchange program to a wholesale out and retail in program for the existing system as well as the additional capacity upgrade.  The working but older inverter would be Okay for the old system but could not be used in the upgraded part.  Kind of makes you appreciate extra soft tissue paper.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 05:18:25 PM by LowGear »
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glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2020, 09:18:59 AM »

Coastal areas tend to have more cloud cover than non-coastal; especially if there's hilly/mountainous land close to the coast (e.g. North Wales). So whilst the solar flux (is that the right word?) is just as strong as anywhere else on that lattitude, it mostly bounces off the top of the clouds...

There is a phenomenon I have seen many times but doesn't seem to get a lot of mention in solar Circles.... Cloud edge effect.

Basically it is the water droplets in clouds concentrating like a magnifying glass, the solar radiation.
You can have a slightly overcast day and the inverter output goes nuts! Clear cloudless days have nothing on the output from the right concentration of cloud which in my observation tends to be high but not all that thin.

Panels usually put out consistent voltage but the amperage varys with varying light intensity.  From what I have seen ( and Cursed) numerous times, is the voltage climbs significantly which also curiously, seems to go through the inverter and makes it push the voltage up on the AC side as well. 

To this end, one can see that for the wattage the inverter is producing, the Voltage it is outputting is way higher than it would push the line voltage up otherwise.
This in turn leads to problems with the inverters tripping out in protection mode from the AC voltage being too high or as I saw early on in my solar learning, can also push the DC side too high if you don't have enough margin there.

I don't get problems from it now as I have changed my setups around to cater for it as it was becoming too frequent and I was loosing too much power but it's a weird and very real if not every day thing.

Still strange to go out on a relatively Cloudy day ( and I have not seen it just from the sun coming out of a cloud)  and see the inverters instead of outputting the lower expected power, absolutely maxed out and producing loads of power.

Hugh Conway

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2020, 10:51:32 PM »
@ Glort.... re the cloud edge effect. I have noticed that myself, occasionally in summer. Here in the North Pacific winter ar 50*N, the clouds don't have edges........in fact "clouds" is a misnomer.......it is just CLOUD (as  in one all-encompassing cloud) most of the time! My solar panels are useless then.
Bless the listeroid! It is running right now charging up the battery bank.
Otherwise, it would be kerosene lamps at noon.
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glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2020, 05:11:52 AM »

 the clouds don't have edges........in fact "clouds" is a misnomer.......it is just CLOUD (as  in one all-encompassing cloud) most of the time!

Yes, what I see is also more a cloud cover than broken clouds. I have watched the sun coming out of clouds and it is not the same. The cloud coverage of the right density, not too heavy, not too thin, causes the output to skyrocket even though the light levels are noticeably reduced.

Quote
My solar panels are useless then.

I have all my inverters at least doubly over clocked with panels.  I get some output on any day, even when it's raining.  Might be 4 Kwh from a setup that does 35Kwh on a normal day but I can always pull 12Kwh in total no matter what.


Quote
Bless the listeroid! It is running right now charging up the battery bank.
Otherwise, it would be kerosene lamps at noon.
[/quote]

There is nothing like the reliability of mechanical generation.
Those of us with solar and particularly those off grid would realize the stupidity of the green motivates dream of a fully renewable grid.
Just  like the sun doesn't shine every day, the wind doesn't blow everyday either. A grid size Lister is known as a coal fired power plant
and without exception is the most reliable, dependable and cheapest form of grid qty power .

Like off grid, solar is great but you are going to need backup sooner rather than later.

mikenash

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2020, 06:20:40 AM »
Quote:

"    A grid size Lister is known as a coal fired power plant
and without exception is the most reliable, dependable and cheapest form of grid qty power . . . ."

I guess this is the same process that is used by politicians - especially during elections years:  Say something moronic, simplistic & inaccurate - but sound definite and informed and demonstrate your readiness to shower words & invective over anyone who disagrees - and most people will either believe you or at least realise that challenging you is more hassle than it's worth.

However:

Down here at the bottom of the world we're sneaking up on 89% renewable (hydro, wind, smidgens of solar here & there, playing with wave stuff etc etc)

If it wasn't for the (depending on the harshness of the winter) eight to eleven days every year when it's really cold & we use lots of power and burn some gas or coal to make up the shortfall, and for the ecologically inefficient but fiscally efficient decision-making of the generating companies (running the hydro lakes lower than optimum while turning the windmills off cos it's more profitable to use hydro than wind)  we could be 100% renewable and with energy to spare

Of course, our situation is unusual in that we're a small, mountainous country with good hydro potential

On a global scale I offer as proof of my assertion the (as of statistics available early last year) the 99.997% of all the electricity ever generated anywhere by nuclear plants which have never had a "leakage" scare, a spill, an explosion, a melt-down, a catastrophe - or anything worse than a bit of bad press

Those are the real cheap, reliable, dependable generators . . .

Just saying :)

glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2020, 09:23:30 AM »

Quote
Down here at the bottom of the world we're sneaking up on 89% renewable (hydro, wind, smidgens of solar here & there, playing with wave stuff etc etc)


Another tactic by politicians and those desperate to prove a point is to talk complete and Utter BS by spin doctoring facts so as to make them say something other than the actual reality of a situation.  This can be done  using special circumstances to make their point that are unique and not widely applicable to others they compare them to.

NZ has a large amount of Hydro and Geo which is not found in a lot of places in the world ( although Norway has been 100% Hydro for years) and they also use Bio which is firing conventional steam turbines with wood chips instead of coal.
Bugger all difference of course but gives the deceivers the ability to wave the green flag while still producing coal like emissions.

Typical and predicable.

Cannot for the life of me understand how anyone that promotes nuke power that produces the most deadly, long lasting, contaminating poisons without equal as part of normal operation can do so in good conscious and expect to be taken seriously when saying it is " clean, environmentally friendly power.

Then again, some people will say anything to push their position as being the right one.