Author Topic: EPA Regulations  (Read 1410 times)

Tanman

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EPA Regulations
« on: January 21, 2020, 07:20:25 PM »
Have you guys read this:

EPA Regulations
1068.315 Permanent exemptions for imported engines/equipment.
*** * *
(i) Ancient engine/equipment exemption.
If you are not the original engine/equipment manufacturer, you may import nonconforming engines/ equipment that are subject to a standard-setting part and were FIRST (emphasis mine) manufactured at least 21 years earlier, as long as they are still substantially in their original configurations.

Would the word FIRST there not make it legal to import replicas of engines over 21 year old!
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sirpedrosa

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2020, 07:57:27 PM »
Hi Tan

"If you are not the original engine/equipment manufacturer"... "as long as they are still substantially in their original configurations"

A replica its not "original" even after 21....25....or more years.

I think you can import a Lister (old iron) CS, JP, FR or other, but.... (see) but not a Listeroid.

But (again) nothing like to ask to your near customs how they read that article...

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basewindow

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2020, 08:34:04 PM »
I read that differently. I interpret it as saying that as long as you are not the OEM, you can import as long as they were first manufactured 21 year or more ago and substantially in original condition.
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Tanman

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2020, 09:01:43 PM »
I read that differently. I interpret it as saying that as long as you are not the OEM, you can import as long as they were first manufactured 21 year or more ago and substantially in original condition.

Same here, it says if YOU are not the original manufacturer..... not the engine itself.
If they wanted to ban clones and copies of old engines they would have omitted the word "first", so whoever at the EPA/importing is putting the kibosh on importing replicas of engines that were first manufactured at least 21 years earlier is overstepping the regulation. How does this ancient engine exemption not apply to clones?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 09:16:21 PM by Tanman »
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broncodriver99

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 01:52:22 AM »
I think it means anything over 21 years old is exempt. Not brand new versions of antique engines. Importing original CS engines is not a problem, never has been. I have had to submit paperwork for the ones I have imported breaking down the serial number to prove they were manufactured before emissions regulations were set for their class, which IIRC was around 2006.

It is also a question of what they mean by "first". Engines that have been rebuilt are considered to be and referred to as re-manufactured by the EPA, hence the verbiage about being substantially in their original configuration.

I think the verbiage about not being the OEM is to prevent a manufacturer with a warehouse full of non compliant but antique engines from importing them directly. Kubota could have a warehouse full of "remanufactured" engines that would be exempt and could therefore import as many non compliant engines as they wanted, so they exclude OEM's from the exemption to prevent it.

Speaking of Kubota. If one was to set up shop in any country outside the US popping out "replicas" of older non compliant Kubota designs that cannot meet the current emissions requirements do you really think they would be allowed to be imported, much less in any quantity. I don't think so.

A quick call to the EPA and/or Customs and Border Patrol should clear it up though. At the end of the day it is the officer who inspects the shipment who makes the call.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 01:56:44 AM by broncodriver99 »

Tanman

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 03:05:30 AM »
That makes a lot of sense. I’m surprised an individual/small business isn’t importing pre 2006 Kubotas, Yanmars, and listers in by the container load. Nos and used engines like that have to be available in large quantities in parts of India and Asia.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 03:08:22 AM by Tanman »
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glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 03:34:55 AM »

Im  not sure why there is even concern over this importation thing in the US. Everytime I look on  fleabay there are a number of listers and a good selection of other engines available. Thats not even counting the members here that have new/ reco engines for sale but semmnto rarely sell them.

For what i can see, getting a lister/ roid in the us is NOT a difficult thing at all  and i dont know why anyone would be concerned with the stuffing around and cost of trying to import one when they ARE clearly  available.

Aside from that, there also seem to be a good supply of alternatives like the china diesels and things like  the little multi cyl kubotas and yanmars. Having played with these, i really dont know why anyone would want a roid if they couldnt get an original.

The 3 cyl kubota i have is small and light, very economical, quiet, smooth and has no problems like vibration and would not give flicker . id gaurantee would be better made and last every bit as long as a roid.... after you rebuilt it and corrected all the built in  indian problems of course. Add to that you have 3-4times the power which means you could underdrive it to get it even quieter and less stressed or hook up a bigger alt.

I would suggest people look  at the available engines already in country and the alternatives before getting hung up on importing roids.

Tanman

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 03:57:06 PM »
That is a good perspective Glort. I just get bent out of shape when the gov says you can't do something that is harmless and something the little guy wants. I'm literally paying them to tell me no lmao.

*I did have my lawyer look over the regulations and he said basically the same thing that broncdriver99 said.
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LowGear

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2020, 07:37:40 PM »
Two items:

It reads to me as it reads to broncodriver99.  Much like 25 year old automobile importation.

These engines are not harmless.  They do exhaust rather nasty particulates when operating on diesel.  I appreciate the tempest in the teapot aroma of this stand but just look at the air and water where there is NO or weak Environmental Protection Agency like programs.
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guest25219

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2020, 09:01:28 PM »
Two items:

It reads to me as it reads to broncodriver99.  Much like 25 year old automobile importation.

These engines are not harmless.  They do exhaust rather nasty particulates when operating on diesel.  I appreciate the tempest in the teapot aroma of this stand but just look at the air and water where there is NO or weak Environmental Protection Agency like programs.

I was thinking it read a lot like the automobile importation rules as well.

And yeah these engines exhaust isn't great. I definitely was rubbing my eyes, and my nose was running for several hours after I was running the engine with a less than perfect exhaust. Yeah the EPA makes rules that can be frustrating at times. But in the grand scheme of things, they have done a lot of good for the environment, and general health of the population. 

AdeV

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2020, 09:24:01 PM »
These engines are not harmless.  They do exhaust rather nasty particulates when operating on diesel.  I appreciate the tempest in the teapot aroma of this stand but just look at the air and water where there is NO or weak Environmental Protection Agency like programs.

If everyone in the US was messing about with an old Lister[oid], then yes - you'd have a fairly major pollution problem.

10,000 of the things in the hands of amateurs isn't worth a fart in space.

I'm sure that, if there was ever a civil servant anywhere on the planet with more than 1 1/2 brain cells to rub together, [s ]he would come to the same conclusion and allow a limited number of annual imports, e.g. on a "not for resale" basis.

Even our godforsaken EU (crafters of some of the most stringent regulations in the solar system) recognised that one could import "an item for personal use" which didn't meet EU standards (for safety, emissions, or whatever). You just couldn't bring in a container full & sell them.
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glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2020, 09:38:49 PM »

Saying these engines cause polloution is like complaining people pissing in a river polloute it. The number and size of the things add up to diddly squat and there are far bigger fish to fry than these things.I'd  like to see what the average run time on the things are as well. Some people run them alot but i think for most theynare a toy that doesent get a whole lot of use at all.

So many many people run them on waste veg oil as well further reducing the insignificance of their output.  I remember reading about the epa wanting to ban model airplane engines at one stage as well. In comparison to the millions of small petrol engines out there, banning some diesels is nothing more than some idiots wanting to justify  their jobs.

No bans on these engines here and the only thing thats a problem with our air and water is caused by bushfires.  Has a huge impact and there is not one thing we can do about it. Every person in the place could own and run 10 of these engines and they still couldnt come near having the effect if they tried to do what the fires do.
Pretty sure the fires in commifornia and other places would be the same.
I would suggest the Uk might have a few of these engines as would the Canadian and i never heard of them causing problems there either.

Always makes me laugh when people treat the air in their country as if its there own and there is a bubble over them so it never goes anywhere else and no one else influences it. Water is a bit different though. Just reading about the deadly polloution in African waterways from all the lithium and cobalt mining for EV batteries.
We have restrictions on refrigeration gasses here that arent available to the public yet you can buy them in the us at any parts store.  Not allowed to vent the gasses either, everything has to be decommisioned and tagged.
Not much point doing one thing and ignoring so many others.

We have that emissions  mentality here  as well with the greenwashed constantly whining about c02 emissions and completely ignoring the emissions of places like china and india whom emit magnitudes more than we do.

Lucky we have our own air to breathe and dont have to share it with them. ::)

AdeV

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2020, 09:46:46 PM »
... completely ignoring the emissions of places like china and india whom emit magnitudes more than we do.

I saw someone argue today - with a straight face, no less - that because the US/UK's "per capita" emissions were higher than China's "per capita" emissions, we needed to put our own house in order first, before humbly begging the Chinese to do something.

Never mind that China alone is responsible for something like 30% of ALL "pollution" emissions on the planet. Because there's 1.4bn of them, that makes it OK apparently.

Oh yeah, I read it in the Guardian of course - the UK's official hand-wringing liberal-lefty rag... and annoyingly the only news forum that's both free to use & that I haven't been banned from yet...
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glort

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2020, 10:13:34 PM »

"If everyone in the US was messing about with an old Lister[oid], then yes - you'd have a fairly major pollution problem."

Yeah, with the amount of people living in apartments like in NY, I imagine the exhaust would get a bit much in these shoeboxes and the buildings.  :laugh:

"10,000 of the things in the hands of amateurs isn't worth a fart in space."

The stupidity of banning these engines when there are so many other things causing far more emissions is moronic.
Anyone thinking banning ghese things is achieving anything at all should google diesel tractor pulling and burnout competitions. Both of which happen in the US many times every single weekend.

"I'm sure that, if there was ever a civil servant anywhere on the planet with more than 1 1/2 brain cells to rub together, [s ]he would come to the same conclusion and allow a limited number of annual imports, e.g. on a "not for resale" basis."

Yes but thats IF they had 1.5 braincells and we know that is an expectation of fantasy in the extreme. They could also mandaye they only be run on renewable fuels as well but banning makes it look like they are achiving so much more to appease the like minded bedwetters.

Thing that occours to me is, if you were  allowed to bring these things in tomorrow, how many people even here are going to rush out and buy one?
I doubt youd be able to shift more than a couple of container loads of the things and that would be if they were lister quality ready to run rather than the rebuild and repair quality of the indian crap.

Again, people right here on this forum will sell you a new rebuilt engine done right but from what i read, they cant find any takers?

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Re: EPA Regulations
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 10:20:54 PM »
Remember when people would say. "Lead by example?"