Author Topic: Lister Flicker  (Read 432 times)

StrawHat

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Lister Flicker
« on: January 15, 2020, 03:31:40 AM »
You know, the flicker from each combustion stroke on the slower CS engines, and poor waveforms that made some appliances not work very well. Now in times gone by, there wasn't much choice other than using heavy flywheels, and maybe inductor/resistor/capacitor filters, ect.. Now days, we have a modern thing which has been perfected to maturity called an inverter. Don't use your Lister to directly power appliances, us it to charge a small battery bank that drives an inverter. This can be done simultaneously while drawing a load with the inverter. The battery bank not only acts as a buffer for Lister flicker but starting loads as well. The electronics in the decent modern inverters are so fast and effective that lister flicker is completely removed, and you power is a lot cleaner. This goes for both sine wave and so called modified sine wave inverters. Modern sine wave inverters are also more efficient than old modified wave inverters. The battery bank need not be huge either as it's purpose is used as a very short time impulse energy storage device. We also have the new generation of silicon carbide semiconductor powered inverters which are even more efficient and smaller for the same true power delivered.

Now for collectors sake, you might run a startomatic as is, but for clean power, there are better ways. Or just use the startomatic to charge the battery bank that drives the inverters for the best of both worlds.

glort

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Re: Lister Flicker
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2020, 04:00:03 AM »

What do you suggest to power the inverter/battery bank?
12/24v alternators are not easy to come across other than automotive types. These need external regulator controllers to have any decent efficency. My 6 1 was flat out driving 2x 80a 12 v internal fan alts which was only about 2 kw output.

Leece alts in 24v with an external reg are good but certainly not cheap here.

mike90045

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Re: Lister Flicker
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2020, 06:47:39 AM »
My wife has been taught to not run large appliances (toaster, blowdryer) unless the generator is running in the winter - the flicker is the ideal indicator for her that's it's safe to power on.

StrawHat

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Re: Lister Flicker
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2020, 05:45:02 AM »

What do you suggest to power the inverter/battery bank?
12/24v alternators are not easy to come across other than automotive types. These need external regulator controllers to have any decent efficency. My 6 1 was flat out driving 2x 80a 12 v internal fan alts which was only about 2 kw output.

Leece alts in 24v with an external reg are good but certainly not cheap here.

That's easy, the most efficient way is to charge the batteries is using a typical AC generator(alternator) putting out 120 or 240 using a modern high frequency switching regulator based charger. A good "smart" charger will not care about voltage fluctuations and will deliver a constant charge according to the batteries needs.  Engineering wise, starting with a higher voltage results in less semiconductor losses than lower voltages in switching regulated chargers. Low voltage alternators tend to be extremely inefficient. A modern switching regulated charger working off 120 volts will be more efficient than an old school alternator charging straight into the batteries.  In other words, an old startomatic powering a modern switching regulated battery charger, which charges the batteries, which are also connected to a separate inverter operating simultaneously to run your modern appliances. No flicker, brush noise, or even if the engine stutters, you still have high quality constant power. Correctly selected low ESR capacitors connected across the batteries will act as extra insurance to eliminate any high frequency noise the batteries can not absorb due to inductance an electro-chemical effects. Keep in mind that both the charger and inverter also have capacitors on the battery side.

cujet

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Re: Lister Flicker
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 11:06:26 PM »
I know of an off grid setup like this. They first used a propane powered generator to charge the battery bank, which wore out the propane genset. They then switched to the 2 cylinder listeroid. As you might expect, there are substantial losses when using AC power from a generator, into a charger, into a battery, out of a battery, into an inverter and end consumer. From what I was led to believe, the fuel consumption went up by about 30% when charging the battery bank/inverter setup vs. using the listeroid power directly.

Put another way, they discovered it was clearly most efficient to use a modern high quality, low fuel consumption diesel generator, and directly power the multi dwelling off grid compound. The Listeroid was not as efficient as a modern diesel genset.

Eventually, they chose a set of tracking solar panels to charge an upgraded battery bank and have not looked back. They simply use the high power consumers during the day when the sun is shining.

EDIT: It's generally said that a Listeroid consumes 0.125 gallons of fuel per KWH. Modern diesel generators consume 0.09 gallons of fuel per KWH. Typical modern diesel gensets are about 28-30% more efficient than a listeroid.

I've said this before, but the real advantage to the Listeroid is the 6/1 and operating it in the middle of it's operational output, consuming a gallon every 6 hours. Modern stuff is not sized to run in that operational range and will therefore consume much more fuel when making 1500W.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 03:05:54 PM by cujet »
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glort

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Re: Lister Flicker
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2020, 05:08:38 AM »

Eventually, they chose a set of tracking solar panels to charge an upgraded battery bank and have not looked back. They simply use the high power consumers during the day when the sun is shining.

This was the way I designed my first " Play" setup with panels and batteries and seems to be the way a lot of systems are being done lately.   I just wanted to learn so used a couple of tired car batteries. The advent of cheap panels and battery prices remaining relatively high means people are designing for generation not storage. 
Ran a Bunch of panels and some big chargers.  I could boil an Urn and it never touched the battery charge because all the power was coming from the panels and the battery's were effectively only Ballast.

Been out today setting up the same sort of thing.  If the power goes out with the current situation I want to have the fridge powered at all times.  The small battery setup with panels will be perfect for that. I can run the thing flat out if I want putting bottles of water in it to Chill to add to the thermal mass which at night when there is less requirement to run the motor, it can run off the batteries.... Or not at all.

I have a few inverters but less chargers. That shouldn't be a problem.  I can run panels direct to the batteries 24V setup and just use a small battery charger board to drive a relay so the bulk of the panels are in or out . Once the batteries hit the pre set voltage, the board will disconnect them and leave it to the chargers I do have.  The DC arcing is easily fixed by using DPDT relays that throw to a dummy load like a  500W floodlight. The trick is not to turn off  DC but to give it somewhere else to go by switching loads. Then again, I can always use an arduino to pulse the  output at 100Hz effectively giving a more frequent zero crossing point than mains power.

I have some 4 way solar connectors for paralleling panels but I think I'll order some more.... Just in case. If need be I can pull out the big 400W panels and make 1600W in a group instead of a Kilo with 250's.

mike90045

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Re: Lister Flicker
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 04:21:26 AM »
I use AC from my listeroid & alternator for running loads and charging batteries.  The ST output is cleaner than modern alternators in the 3kw ballpark.  My inverter qualifies both alternators, but more stuff runs off the ST than the modern head.
 Recharging batteries, the larger inverters with H Bridge FETs, are in the 96% efficient range, so there is little lost compared to using DC to recharge