Author Topic: DIY Short block  (Read 3734 times)

snowman18

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2020, 05:56:21 AM »

sNOman, may I call you Nellie? You're such a NEGATIVE Nellie. I'm really cornfused as to why it would concern you if the idea is sound. Has anyone twisted your arm and demanded payment from you?
By guess and by gosh, anyone attempting this exercise with any care above that which the Indians have given the subject, should by rights succeed by (at least) leaps and bounds over their careless designs.

Instead of blowing hot air build a prototype then put some dyno hours on it, come back and show us the data output.

Your right no one has solicited any funds from me personally but several forum members have stepped up to the plate. In my opinion they would be buying the pokes nose.

If you really have half ownership in a fully equipped machine shop you would know it's the front end employees who keep the wheels in motion.

Have your go to guy do an estimate for materials and machining plus time to weld everything, together.

Back in the old days when stick welding was the thing any welder estimating a job knew exactly how long it took to remove a stub and insert a fresh welding rod. Time is money and this was factored into the estimate.

Instead of what ifs give us some real data, there's a big difference between gobbing bird shit and a really nice bead with no porosity.

I believe at one point to suggested painting the inside of the engine block with several coats of Glibcoat to seal pinholes from poor welds.

Do you have any clue how much a gallon this paint cost.




mikenash

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2020, 08:06:17 AM »
If you had a precision-cut, dowel-and-pin type fit, bolt-together construction imho that would be more do-able

Imagine a structure that basically hung on three sections:

Two vertical side-pates with cutouts and threaded holes to take TRB crank, cam etc bearings - maybe ex M12?  And a horizontal top section, relatively small in cross-section so it wouldn't have to be too heavy, with re-inforced areas where the barrel/head tie-down studs thread in and where it abuts/is fastened to the vertical pieces

After all, the rotational loads are balanced, and the power output is only a handful of kW, and, while there's a lot of torque - there's not a LOT of torque

Think, for example, how light the alloy case of a 200 BHP, 13,000 RPM Yamaha R1 or GSX-R1000 is - it's not about material mass, it's about understanding the loads & applying good engineering design principles

AdeV

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2020, 08:07:04 AM »
Right - let's try to keep this polite shall we? It's entirely possible to get your opinion across without effing and jeffing or calling people liars/bullshitters/etc.
Cheers!
Ade.
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1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

dkmc

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2020, 08:28:05 AM »
I for one, am welcoming ANY traffic on this forum. Hasn't been much really in recent years. Welcome the debate, discourse, and doubters. Really hoping for a come back to the off-gridders, the modders, and the out-of-the-box free thinkers. Maybe here comes a turn around? Back to where we never was?

sirpedrosa

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2020, 01:08:56 PM »
Hi AdeV

It was a matter of time... here we go again!

Now, for all members, I ask you kindly if anyone has a internal shematics of a bosh dynastarter 0 010 350 00.

Cheers
VP
Bernard 18A - 1968 (mama's water pump - year of my birth)
Petter PAZ1 - Jun 1967, 3HP, sn 416xxxx
Petter PAZ1 - Nov 1979, 3HP, sn 425xxxx
Lister 12/2 - 12651227, the pearl!

guest25219

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2020, 03:39:19 PM »
Maybe this will be inspiring. Spent 15 or so minutes and modeled up an engine block just going off of photos (so things aren't to scale). I tried to model it in a way that someone with minimal shop access could do it. I'll also explain how i would go about trying to machine this. I should mention, IN THIS WRITE UP, I AM GLOSSING OVER A TON OF HOMEWORK YOU NEED TO DO REGARDING DIMENSIONS!!! Each plate is half inch thick steel. All welds are 3/8" fillet welds. Laser/plas/waterjet (whichever poison you prefer) your 6 plates. This is your chance to cut out the major geometry, don't worry about any threaded holes yet.

(Beer break)

Take your plates and weld them together. Now don't just go blasting welds at it. Now take your time with this. This isn't a race, go slow, take frequent beer breaks, weld short bead lengths, working around the block at different times to keep your heat even.

(Beer break)

(optional but recommended step)-Find a shop with a heat treat oven and have the weldment stress relieved. Or find an appliance store with an old stove. And convert it into your stress relieving oven. To do that just watch/copy this guy

(Beer break)

(Disclaimer...I'M NOT A MACHINIST!)
Next set your big steel block (this weldment will weigh around 100lbs) onto your knee mill with one of the sides (sides=plates with two big round holes) facing up. I would set this beast on some 123 blocks. I would indicate across the top and and shim it until its as close to zero runout as possible. Clamp er down...

(Beer break)

Take a shell mill, fly cutter, small file wielding army of ants, etc. and mill the area around the crankshaft/camshaft holes flat. Then punch your threaded holes for everything.

(Beer break/spray for ants)

Flip the thing over and set the milled surface on the 123 blocks and repeat everything on this side.

(Beer break, and did i mention I'M NOT A MACHINIST!!!)

Set the block upright square everything up by indicating off one of the sides you just milled. Mill the top flat. and then punch your threaded holes.

(bonus round)

Flip the block so its upside down with the milled top facing down on some 123 blocks. Now mill the bottom down until you are taking material off evenly all around it.

After all this go online, and do a long write up about what you did so everyone can tell you how you did it wrong and how you're the worst machnist in the world  ;D





Hopefully this helps with this discussion.  :D

mikenash

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2020, 05:15:35 PM »
Primo!

FWIW I would suggest some reinforcement at the big top threads.  Simply on the basis that for longevity a thread should be, minimum, the depth of its diameter plus a turn or two

Cheers

guest25219

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2020, 05:30:29 PM »
FWIW I would suggest some reinforcement at the big top threads.  Simply on the basis that for longevity a thread should be, minimum, the depth of its diameter plus a turn or two

You're absolutely correct! Thanks for pointing that out!

Willw

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2020, 06:42:01 PM »
Very interesting discussion, I say if you have the will, the means and can afford it ,why not give one or two a try?

The way I see it, and I'm speaking about prototype stage here, you might fail but so what? Analyze what went wrong and try again.
Another possibility, you end up with a working only-one-in-the-world Darth Vader type engine. What a conversation piece and advertisement for your fabrication shop!
Third possibility, you figure it all out and are successful. Cool.

Have a read of this similar discussion from back in the day https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1844.0
Daily driver '97 GMC W4 tipper on WVO/Kerosene mix.
6/1 clone standby generator.
Too many projects.

dkmc

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2020, 09:52:47 PM »

Very nice effort Sirloin! A horizontal mill would come in handy, but I get that many don't have them. I suppose nuts could be installed on the cylinder studs inside the case for added strength. If there's room? This doesn't seem so difficult of a project, but then again they never do until you're into it. I build some things using the 'engineering on the fly' approach, and usually don't get bit to bad most times. Going slow, and planning each next move helps. This seems like a fun project, it would be a unique conversation piece for sure. 

George A

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2020, 02:43:12 AM »
The idea of a welded assembly is always tempting, but you run into many of the problems already mentioned. Without a water jet and accurate, controlled cutting/welding the quality might be spotty at best.

Has anyone given any thought to just casting raw blocks? There are foundries operating in the Amish areas of this country that turn out excellent work for a decent price. All you'd need is an existing block so a pattern can be made, pour the castings and have machining done afterwards to accept the Indian parts.

There MIGHT be a problem if the EPA determines that you are a "manufacturer" and decides to clamp down, but if only a few are made at a time for "hobbyists" I really don't see a problem.

Okay...........that was my two bits worth.  ;)
I've joined "the dark side"....if it has a spark plug, it's obsolete technology.

glort

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2020, 03:38:28 AM »
Are the Amish casting blocks and if so would they sell them?

guest25219

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2020, 11:28:10 AM »
There are foundries operating in the Amish areas of this country that turn out excellent work for a decent price. All you'd need is an existing block so a pattern can be made, pour the castings and have machining done afterwards to accept the Indian parts.

All the Amish in my area are either in the carpentry trade, or working in welding shops/trailer factories. Kinda wish we had a foundry nearby that was ok with the little onsy twosy stuff. Smallest foundry near me still prefers quantities in the 100's.

dkmc

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2020, 03:55:00 PM »


Cat Tail Foundry
Address: 167 W Cattail Rd, Gordonville, PA 17529
Phone: (717) 768-7323

If you google them you can read about many happy customers stories.

George A

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2020, 09:47:54 PM »
That's the one. It sure couldn't hurt to submit either a scaled drawing or......better yet.......a complete block for an estimate. They'd have to make a wooden pattern and pour a casting, so the cost would be in that pattern and the amount of iron required.

Then there's the machining time on top of that, BUT you would have a genuine "made in USA" product. Enough calls for such a piece would bring the cost down.
I've joined "the dark side"....if it has a spark plug, it's obsolete technology.