Author Topic: DIY Short block  (Read 1748 times)

glort

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2020, 10:49:38 AM »

The thicker the steel the more it twists and bends when welded. There is no possible way to keep it from moving round. You could set it all in a jig and unless it's consistantly welded, minute you pull it out it's going to change shape and alignment.

 The way most people weld, including myself, is not for precision work. Also you would be wanting people to weld long runs and have no pinholes which would cause oil leaks.

Likewise the tolerances may not have to be that great from a mechanical POV but welding a Crankcase that didn't piss oil everywhere when it was done I don't think is a job that could be trusted to Joe public. If they aren't happy with the thing leaking oil, where are you going to stand on warranty? You would either have to wear the costs of sending them another one for the same thing to likley happen and/or you would soon get a reputation your engine cases were shit and you'd not be selling any.

While I understand where you are coming from with shipping and flat packing, I would suggest the only way to get any quality control would be to weld them before being milled so any movement could be corrected and everything was straight and aligned.

There would be a lot you could do with the idea though, taller blocks for more flywheel clearance, greater sump capacity provision for fittings for external oil pumps and filters, 1/2 speed power take offs from the crank etc

farmerjohn

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2020, 11:52:08 AM »

The thicker the steel the more it twists and bends when welded. There is no possible way to keep it from moving round. You could set it all in a jig and unless it's consistantly welded, minute you pull it out it's going to change shape and alignment.

 The way most people weld, including myself, is not for precision work. Also you would be wanting people to weld long runs and have no pinholes which would cause oil leaks.

Likewise the tolerances may not have to be that great from a mechanical POV but welding a Crankcase that didn't piss oil everywhere when it was done I don't think is a job that could be trusted to Joe public. If they aren't happy with the thing leaking oil, where are you going to stand on warranty? You would either have to wear the costs of sending them another one for the same thing to likley happen and/or you would soon get a reputation your engine cases were shit and you'd not be selling any.

While I understand where you are coming from with shipping and flat packing, I would suggest the only way to get any quality control would be to weld them before being milled so any movement could be corrected and everything was straight and aligned.

There would be a lot you could do with the idea though, taller blocks for more flywheel clearance, greater sump capacity provision for fittings for external oil pumps and filters, 1/2 speed power take offs from the crank etc

Glort,

If you weld the outside corners first while they are being held in place by pins or bolts - the plates will have a tendency to expand open..  you can use this to your advantage when welding..  if you tack each side and weld each corner in rotation a few inches at a time - the metal will have nowhere to go and will be in constant consistent stress all around..  no warping..  especially with the box joints, bolts, etc

I really do not care about quality control (aside from providing a top notch kit) or competence of the end user..  As far as I am concerned its buyer beware..  follow these simple steps and you will have a short block..  screw up and you wont

Paint the inside with a couple coats of glytol and those shitty welds will stop leaking at the pinholes.. 

What I am getting at here is something that is cheap and relatively easy for the DIY'er to assemble - no complications..  keep it simple just like the Indian dudes who make these

If you screw up - I will gladly sell you replacement parts..  If the parts I ship you are crap - I replace them..  simple as that

Again - these engines can be WAY out of whack and still run fine..  follow the steps with the well machined and easy to assemble kit and you will have something far better than the sand incrusted shit shows that India ships out..  even with crappy welds..

Lets be honest here..  nobody will ever make any money selling these kits..  but if I build one..  I'm more than happy to share the cad designs and more than happy to run off as many duplicates as people demand for my time and materials

John


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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2020, 06:41:41 AM »
I'm intrigued.  Build the short block, press in bushings for the mains and cam, plug in the cam & crankshaft, and add the top parts.   And have a drain  hole in the bottom !

What do the cylinder studs bolt into ?  Is plate stiff enough to not deform with diesel  ?

snowman18

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2020, 11:50:03 AM »

The thicker the steel the more it twists and bends when welded. There is no possible way to keep it from moving round. You could set it all in a jig and unless it's consistantly welded, minute you pull it out it's going to change shape and alignment.

 The way most people weld, including myself, is not for precision work. Also you would be wanting people to weld long runs and have no pinholes which would cause oil leaks.

Likewise the tolerances may not have to be that great from a mechanical POV but welding a Crankcase that didn't piss oil everywhere when it was done I don't think is a job that could be trusted to Joe public. If they aren't happy with the thing leaking oil, where are you going to stand on warranty? You would either have to wear the costs of sending them another one for the same thing to likley happen and/or you would soon get a reputation your engine cases were shit and you'd not be selling any.

While I understand where you are coming from with shipping and flat packing, I would suggest the only way to get any quality control would be to weld them before being milled so any movement could be corrected and everything was straight and aligned.

There would be a lot you could do with the idea though, taller blocks for more flywheel clearance, greater sump capacity provision for fittings for external oil pumps and filters, 1/2 speed power take offs from the crank etc

Glort,

If you weld the outside corners first while they are being held in place by pins or bolts - the plates will have a tendency to expand open..  you can use this to your advantage when welding..  if you tack each side and weld each corner in rotation a few inches at a time - the metal will have nowhere to go and will be in constant consistent stress all around..  no warping..  especially with the box joints, bolts, etc

I really do not care about quality control (aside from providing a top notch kit) or competence of the end user..  As far as I am concerned its buyer beware..  follow these simple steps and you will have a short block..  screw up and you wont

Paint the inside with a couple coats of glytol and those shitty welds will stop leaking at the pinholes.. 

What I am getting at here is something that is cheap and relatively easy for the DIY'er to assemble - no complications..  keep it simple just like the Indian dudes who make these

If you screw up - I will gladly sell you replacement parts..  If the parts I ship you are crap - I replace them..  simple as that

Again - these engines can be WAY out of whack and still run fine..  follow the steps with the well machined and easy to assemble kit and you will have something far better than the sand incrusted shit shows that India ships out..  even with crappy welds..

Lets be honest here..  nobody will ever make any money selling these kits..  but if I build one..  I'm more than happy to share the cad designs and more than happy to run off as many duplicates as people demand for my time and materials

John

Have you priced out the steel needed for this project, once you learn the price you'll soon wake up from this delusional dream.

Add in the cost of having those parts laser cut and machining for the cam and crankshaft bearings which incidentally have to be line bored.

If this pipe dream of yours were to bear fruit the line boring would be done after the main case was welded together and possibly heat treated to relieve stress.

The problem with Canadian winters is they're just too dam long and you got yourself a bad case of cabin fever.

glort

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2020, 01:04:19 PM »

Have you priced out the steel needed for this project, once you learn the price you'll soon wake up from this delusional dream.

Add in the cost of having those parts laser cut and machining for the cam and crankshaft bearings which incidentally have to be line bored.

If this pipe dream of yours were to bear fruit the line boring would be done after the main case was welded together and possibly heat treated to relieve stress.

The problem with Canadian winters is they're just too dam long and you got yourself a bad case of cabin fever.

Classic!

I Can't see any way to get pieces welded together that are pre bored to line up well enough to get the cam and crank in so they don't destroy bearings, Seals or just bind up completely.
These may not be F1 engines but they still need to have tolerances set up to thousandths of an inch.

farmerjohn

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2020, 01:40:29 PM »

Have you priced out the steel needed for this project, once you learn the price you'll soon wake up from this delusional dream.

Add in the cost of having those parts laser cut and machining for the cam and crankshaft bearings which incidentally have to be line bored.

If this pipe dream of yours were to bear fruit the line boring would be done after the main case was welded together and possibly heat treated to relieve stress.

The problem with Canadian winters is they're just too dam long and you got yourself a bad case of cabin fever.

Lol you gave me a good laugh about the cabin fever - perhaps you are right

I stated this thread to discuss the possibilities and to figure out the engineering - not to just stomp on the idea because its hard to do

I own all of the equipment that you mention..  I do not have to get it sent out.. all it will cost me is my spare time and materials.  Also I did not say it was going to be cheap

Help me engineer solutions to the inherent problems before claiming its a waste of time

For example - tapered roller bearings can handle slight misalignments up to 0.008" - we have full control over the design - the listeroid bearing mounts could have a little bit of play built into the mounting holes on the case to allow for field alignment

Self aligning ball bearings can be used for the camshaft:
https://www.skf.com/ca/en/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/self-aligning-ball-bearings/index.html

These engines do not need micron level tolerances..  Before rebuilding my engine that had 10,000 some odd hours on it - the camshaft bushings were all wallowed out and the cam was more or less free floating.  It thumped along just fine for many thousands of hours non-stop

I'm not saying we just throw all tolerances out the window - but there is more wiggle room here that can be engineered around

Before you bash the idea - think about solutions..  We know the holes are not going to perfectly line up - we can agree on that and that is set in stone.  So what can be done to the design to mitigate those issues in the field?

John

dkmc

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2020, 03:14:59 PM »
John
There's a laser shop in Lockport I use from time to time. They are very reasonable and do good work. If you ever developed a set of drawings, I'd have them price the job. They can cut up to 1/2" steel I believe.

And a Snowman stopped by with a bit of heat to warm the winter a tad. Festive.

farmerjohn

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2020, 03:36:02 PM »
John
There's a laser shop in Lockport I use from time to time. They are very reasonable and do good work. If you ever developed a set of drawings, I'd have them price the job. They can cut up to 1/2" steel I believe.

And a Snowman stopped by with a bit of heat to warm the winter a tad. Festive.

Thats the spirit! 

I appreciate that but I have in house equipment and staff to help out - I own part of a CNC machine shop

I most likely have enough scrap metal laying around to build a prototype

This project (if it even gets off the ground) is for fun and to expand the options available to the community

If / when it comes to drawing up a design - the plan would be to share it so anyone can do it on their own and or modify it

Thanks

John

farmerjohn

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2020, 03:42:05 PM »
I'm intrigued.  Build the short block, press in bushings for the mains and cam, plug in the cam & crankshaft, and add the top parts.   And have a drain  hole in the bottom !

What do the cylinder studs bolt into ?  Is plate stiff enough to not deform with diesel  ?

It cant be no worse than the melted cast iron frying pans that the Indians are churning out!  lol

I've drilled holes into my cast iron block and its full of porosity and flaws.  Holes were patched with body filler and paint at the factory

The top plate could be thicker or doubled up and the studs would thread in..  a locking nut could be added to the bottom side for further strength

I don't see an issue

veggie

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2020, 04:55:26 PM »

farmerjohn,

I too am in Canada. I am quite interested to follow your progress on this project.
As you stated, the engine is a marvelously simple and reliable design.

carry on !

veggie
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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2020, 07:16:50 PM »
Hi John

I can prove to you, on paper, that bumble bees cant fly. It's doesn't stop them flying and occasionally stinging someone.
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2020, 11:39:33 PM »
Not that I would .I would buy 3/4" anyway aluminum plate waterjet finished sections, CNC mill each section, machine fastenings, dowel pin, mounting holes, TRB races, with O-ring groves and bolt it up! No boring mill needed anyway. Welding would work on anything but involves another line of work and attack.... in theory you could get waterjet parts within +/-.010, and finish it on a Bridgeport.
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dkmc

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2020, 02:34:12 AM »

Actually, you could use 'military grade'  'billet' aluminum. Build it light, but strong. Then mount in in a streamliner, haul it to Bonneville, and set some record in the worlds only Listeroid powered automobile. Even that wouldn't quash the naysayers I'm thinkin.


Not that I would .I would buy 3/4" anyway aluminum plate waterjet finished sections, CNC mill each section, machine fastenings, dowel pin, mounting holes, TRB races, with O-ring groves and bolt it up! No boring mill needed anyway. Welding would work on anything but involves another line of work and attack.... in theory you could get waterjet parts within +/-.010, and finish it on a Bridgeport.

snowman18

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2020, 04:06:46 AM »
Guys,

I have been thinking about building my own block from metal plate.  After a few rebuilds of my listeroid I have enough spare parts lying around to build another one

You can easily buy all the parts minus the block for cheap.  The blocks are next to impossible to find / source for a reasonable price.  Importing new engines is getting harder and harder

I have access to a machine shop with CNC waterjet, plasma and CNC machine

I'm thinking of machining up a simple block which would consist of metal plates around 1/4" or so welded together.  It would be more square / rectangular than the original but all the holes, etc would line up and everything would just bolt on.

What do you guys think?  has anyone done this before?  Am I crazy?  Should I start selling it as a DIY weldable kit?  lol
If the Indians can do it - why cant we?

It would certainly get more guys into the hobby..  What about flywheels?

John
[/quote]

Thats the spirit! 

I appreciate that but I have in house equipment and staff to help out - I own part of a CNC machine shop

I most likely have enough scrap metal laying around to build a prototype

This project (if it even gets off the ground) is for fun and to expand the options available to the community

If / when it comes to drawing up a design - the plan would be to share it so anyone can do it on their own and or modify it

Thanks

John
[/quote]

I own a box full of mixed tools but that doesn't mean I'm any more of a mechanic than you are an engineer of a machinist.

The Indians make clones because they got a hold of original drawings of the Lister engines. Just like the Chinese managed to do.

The problem with clones is that anyone can purchase the patterns used for the castings, then you end up with dozens of back yard type foundry's producing castings.

And there is no quality control on the metallurgy which can range from recycled machine cast down to the lowest grades stove and sewer cast.

When I was a kid we scoffed at merchandise coming into a country made in Japan, we called it Jap Scrap. The Japaneses now make some of the finest quality cars along with a plethora of other export goods.

All produced by ISO certified shops.

The original Lister's and Petter engines are built heavy for a reason, my 15 hp Petter tips the scale well over 500 pounds Date of manufacture mid 1970"s engine probably has 10,000 hours in the clock.

And still runs like a cheap old Timex watch takes a liken and keeps on ticking.

You have a desire to market an unproven package, I suggest you build your engine then put some hard working hours on it.

The S.A.E. ( Society of Automotive Engineers ) sets standards. Before the SAE came into existence engine parts were made by a blacksmith and a dam water pump from the same year and model engine would not interchange.

I view your engine as an orphan.

In the meantime I'm not buying into this BS you peddling.

An Introduction to Engine Testing and Development

This book presents the basic principles required for the testing and development of internal combustion engine power train systems, providing the new automotive engineer with the basic tools required to effectively carry out meaningful tests.

With useful information for graduate students, new test technicians, and established engineers, this book explains the test process - from setting up a dynamo meter test facility to testing for performance and durability. Combustion analysis and emissions, and new test trends are also covered.

Author: Richard D. Atkins
Publisher: SAE International
Specs: Published by SAE International with a Product Code of R-344, ISBN of 978-0-7680-2099-1, and 308 pages in a hardbound binding.






dkmc

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Re: DIY Short block
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2020, 04:31:36 AM »

sNOman, may I call you Nellie? You're such a NEGATIVE Nellie. I'm really cornfused as to why it would concern you if the idea is sound. Has anyone twisted your arm and demanded payment from you?
By guess and by gosh, anyone attempting this exercise with any care above that which the Indians have given the subject, should by rights succeed by (at least) leaps and bounds over their careless designs.