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Author Topic: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?  (Read 694 times)

tyssniffen

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Iím hoping to see some automatic or semi-automatic water injection systems that are working.  Iím a believer, but want something I donít have to babysit.

Anything with gravity feed? Whatís some cool DIY systems?
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

glort

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2019, 09:59:17 PM »

Very simple for a stationary setup.
I wouldn't recommend a gravity setup, way too many variables.  Many people want simple as possible but that often brings in more problems that it solves.
My suggestion would be to use a Pump and a timer.  The pump can lift the water from below, the amount administered will always be the same regardless of tank level and even though nothing like the problem it's made out, you won't have to worry about  the engine flooding if something goes wrong.

One of the Little Diaphragm pumps would be ideal and you can use a Micro Mist garden sprayer for pot plants as the nozzle or just bash a Bit of copper flat on and end and use that. Currently what I have in my Vehicle for some time.

You can buy little timers off ebay that give a delay period and the time on. I recommend a little water often.  You could do something like 1 second every Minute for initial cleaning and then back that off to one second every 5 Min once the thing has cleaned up. It doesn't take a lot but the key is keeping the dose regular.

If you are remotely starting and stopping the engine, power the pump and timer from the output of the generator so it automaticaly starts and stops. You may want to add in a delay timer before it all power up to give the engine a chance to settle down and warm up a bit.
If you do it hands on then no problem.

The amount of water isn't Critical, just as long as it's not  flooding the engine. For a start point you could look at  doing around half fuel usage which would be plenty  to clean and maintain. Work out what that is in frequency and time on and go from there and balance consumption with delivery.

Sorry, just saw your message now.

tyssniffen

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2019, 06:25:18 PM »
I hear you saying the gravity idea wouldn't work well, but let me ask this:

on my 6/1, if I did do some sort of gravity thing, I'd set it up like an IV bag, with a flexible tube going to a metal tube that snaked down into the air intake.  Then, when the engine was up and running, I'd turn on the drip and then turn it off as I was shutting down.

The question is, would a drip/dribble that would come out of a gravity feed like that *work* ?  Or is it necessary to have a *spray*? 

Right now, I'm just dropping a teaspoon to tablespoon down the pipe every so often while hot and loaded... and that seems to work well enough. 
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

glort

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2019, 10:58:16 PM »
The iv bag is a novel idea and a new one.
I cant see why it wouldnt work. The water is better going in as drops rather than a mist for cleaning. It will stick to the walls of the inlet and break up plenty anyway.

Dont be shy with the water either. If you run it in quick and an iv wont br too much even turned up, and the water runs out half way through , doesent matter. I imagine after a while youll get the feel for it anyway.

Important thing imho is being regular..... and with putting the water in the engine as well. :0)

tyssniffen

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2019, 06:40:54 PM »
Ok, thanks.    I've now had another idea, because it's stuff I have around.   I'm thinking about setting up a gallon jug to hang like an IV bag in the gen shed, and have a tube set up with the *garden drip irrigation valve*, such as these:
https://store.rainbird.com/pc10-pressure-compensating-module-barb-inlet-10-0-gph-green.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=RainBirdPLA&utm_term=&gclid=CjwKCAiA3abwBRBqEiwAKwICA04aSAm-YsEnxICI-WRWFoUb-maWMNGJiXIXA3Sh5bgiJZ9TRfbrKBoCnLoQAvD_BwE

I have all sorts, that can do from 1/2 gallon an hour to 2 gallons an hour, with a better tube at the end that can snake down into the intake. 


BUT, just to ask the question again -  a DRIP is ok?  Are you suggesting that the suction from the intake will pull the drip down into the chamber? 

And, further questions:
- what frequency do you think I should try - 1/2gph, 1gph, 2gph?

- WHERE should the drip happen? at the top of the typical inlet pipe, or down inside, close to the block?




6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

glort

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2019, 11:13:26 PM »
Ok, thanks.    I've now had another idea, because it's stuff I have around.   I'm thinking about setting up a gallon jug to hang like an IV bag in the gen shed, and have a tube set up with the *garden drip irrigation valve*, such as these:
https://store.rainbird.com/pc10-pressure-compensating-module-barb-inlet-10-0-gph-green.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=RainBirdPLA&utm_term=&gclid=CjwKCAiA3abwBRBqEiwAKwICA04aSAm-YsEnxICI-WRWFoUb-maWMNGJiXIXA3Sh5bgiJZ9TRfbrKBoCnLoQAvD_BwE

The way I read the description of that fitting it needs from 10-50 PSI. You aren't going to get that from gravity feed.  That's one reason why I continue to prefer Pumps.  I don't think a jug will work like an IV bag anyway.  They are ridgid where an IV bag is soft so the outside air pressure can squeeze the fluid out. A rigid jug needs an air inlet to compensate pressure and once you do that you are back to the vagrancies of gravity feed. 

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I have all sorts, that can do from 1/2 gallon an hour to 2 gallons an hour, with a better tube at the end that can snake down into the intake. 

Start off with matching the fuel Burn. If it's going through a litre and hour, that will be fine for the water.  2 gallons an hour I think would be over kill and may not even run well on that. 8x fuel burn is a bit excessive in my book.  As long as the delivery is regular/ Constant, you don't need a LOT of water just a continuous dosage.


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BUT, just to ask the question again -  a DRIP is ok?  Are you suggesting that the suction from the intake will pull the drip down into the chamber? 

YES, DRIP is BETTER in this application.
The airflow will pull the water droplets into the combustion chamber. There is not enough suction in a diesel to pull the water any height through a tube but once the water has entered the inlet manifold at a horizontal point, the inlet rush of air will pull it into the chamber no problem.

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And, further questions:
- what frequency do you think I should try - 1/2gph, 1gph, 2gph?

Go with the same as Fuel consumption. If the thing is using a litre an hour, go with that. Thinking about it, even if it's using more and the water is going in the whole time the engine is running at 1L an hour every hour, I can't see you needing more unless you are running some really crap fuel.

Quote
- WHERE should the drip happen? at the top of the typical inlet pipe, or down inside, close to the block?

It's not Critical.  The further back from the combustion chamber the more pure evaporation you will get and i'm NOT at all convinced that is good for CLEANING. I know all the commercial WI manufacturers are aiming for fog or vapour BUT they are designing for performance NOT CLEANING. Everything I have studied on WI for cleaning purposes suggests that droplets Phase changing in the combustion chamber create a form of cavitation that results in mini explosions that erode the carbon away but are not strong enough to act on any metal surfaces. This has been my repeated experience with it.

Try not to overthink this. It's simply putting a regular amount of water in. How that happens is not a Concern as long as it gets in there in a metered fashion while the engine is running it's all good.

tyssniffen

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2019, 05:27:40 PM »
ok, thanks. I will report back when things are set up.
6/1 with 2 tank for WVO.  pushing power into off-grid house battery bank, in winter.

farmerjohn

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2020, 10:20:40 AM »
I have found that if you place a bucket of water just below the level of the intake and run a hose from the bottom of the bucket and into the intake - the suction power of the intake will suck in just enough water on each intake stroke to provide sufficient cleaning.  Prime the hose with gravity suction first and then shove it into the intake..  I use 1/8" plastic tubing

A 20 L bucket will last for a few hours..  I do this approx once a week.. 

Its simple and allows you to walk away without worry..

The key is to have a steady / somewhat heavy load on the engine during the water injection..  I keep a constant 3kw load on mine - it works a treat..  make sure its warmed up first


John


glort

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2020, 10:35:37 AM »
^^^^ That sounds like a Highly variable setup. A lot would depend for a start on the air cleaner you were running and the restriction it posed on the engine. The volume of water admitted would also vary greatly as the level of the bucket dropped.

Nice and simple if it works for you but I would suggest the results could be highly variable from one setup to the next.

farmerjohn

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2020, 11:57:52 AM »
^^^^ That sounds like a Highly variable setup. A lot would depend for a start on the air cleaner you were running and the restriction it posed on the engine. The volume of water admitted would also vary greatly as the level of the bucket dropped.

Nice and simple if it works for you but I would suggest the results could be highly variable from one setup to the next.

these engines do not really give a shit :)

From start to finish the bucket is at most 12 inches or so in height..   

Fill the bucket - hang it from the ceiling roughly at the same height as the intake and shove the hose into the intake..    let nature take its course as you walk away

Just do not hang the bucket too high..  it will syphon in on its own and stop then engine and fill the cylinder with water (found that out the hard way)

The venturi effect of the intake sucks in just the right amount on each stoke..  it does not need to be perfectly metered..  it just needs to be done on a regular basis

It all evens out over time :)

Keep it simple

John


Hugh Conway

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Re: Diagram/descriptions/photos of water injection systems? 6/1, 8/1?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2020, 06:36:09 PM »
Farmerjohn sez "these engines do not really give a shit"
Ha! That's mostly true. That extremely simple water injection system is great! No moving parts, no real failure points.
Maybe not interesting to the inveterate tinkerer, but sure fits the K.I.S.S. principle.
I just spray a litre or so into the intake once in a while, but this  bucket method is even easier.
Our listeroid just passed 2000 hours and continues to bang away uneventfully. Clean fuel, clean oil, a bit of water down its throat now and then.........
Cheers
Hugh
JKson 6/1  (Utterpower PMG ) Off-grid
Lister 6/1 Start-O-Matic engine......running with PMG
1978 Royal Enfield (glutton for punishment by Indian iron)
1963 BMW R-27 project