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Author Topic: Used Refrigeration Oil  (Read 536 times)

rdbates1

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Used Refrigeration Oil
« on: December 15, 2019, 09:35:11 PM »
I have an opportunity to get some used refrigeration oil for my Changfa.  It looks like the older stuff is mineral oil which should run fine but will the newer synthetics burn?

glort

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 08:19:55 AM »

I have heard a lot about Synthetics not burning as well but never had the chance to ( knowingly) try any.
That said, on the face of it I don't see any reason they shouldn't burn just as well. People don't seem to understand synthetic oil is not like  " Plastic" oil, it's  mineral oil as well. The synthetic part is just the additives not the oil itself.  That being the case, I don't see what difference it could make.

The synthetic oils are supposed to clean an engine better and cause less ash and build-up so to me that says it should burn cleaner.

I have tried about every oil I can get my hands on in all sorts of mixes and I have found VERY little difference between even Veg and all the various mineral oils. The main real differences I can see are the weights of the oil and the additives.  This oil or that oil for whatever use is still just oil, it's just had different stuff thrown in to enhance it's properties for the specific use it's intended for.  As non of it is intended for burning, it's all much of a muchness.

At very worst, If you don't like the way the engine runs on it (and I'd be amazed if you could tell any difference) just blend it with something else ( other than veg) and use it that way. If it is a bit hard to light off or smokes ( again I'd be surprised) Mix 5% ULP in it and that should cure any issues with it.
The ULP will light off before the oil under compression and set the other oil burning and faster.

I Can tell you this for a guaranteed Certainly,  Trying some in your engine will not hurt it that's for sure.  I would properly filter it down to 5 or 1 Micron, ( i use water filter carts, String wound holds more dirt but foam are all I can usually get now and work perfectly well)  and make sure no water has gotten into whatever containers it is stored in. If it has being mineral oil it's not hygroscopic so take the oil off the top after it is settled and should be fine.

Again, I haven't tried it but I see no reason ( other than typical internet over cautiousness of what people don't understand) as to why it wouldn't burn just fine.

snowman18

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 09:36:32 AM »
I just finished reading the MSDS for synthetic refrigeration oil, I suggest that you do the same, as there are health implications noted.

Flash points









« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 09:41:19 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 10:09:17 AM »
Used refrigerant oils often retain a certain amount of freon dissolved into the oil, when freon is exposed to heat of flame phosgene gas is created.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene

Phosgene can be released during building fires. In one instance, a deputy fire chief died ten days after inhaling fumes that wafted down outside a burning restaurant. After a two-day hospitalization he had appeared to recover, but ultimately suffered cardiac arrest at home following tracheobronchial inflammation, alveolar hemorrhage, and pulmonary edema. The phosgene was produced by decomposing Freon 22 after flames ducted up from a grease fire heated an air-conditioning unit on the roof and ruptured a hose

WWII nerve gas, be carefull what your using for engine fuel.

H2S, hydrogen sulfide another deadly gas that kills, mostly associated with oil well and gas wells but may also be found in sewer systems and septic tanks. Has a distinctive rotten egg odor.

H2S dissolves in water and oil and so will freon.

https://tinyurl.com/wcygb3b

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 10:15:10 AM by snowman18 »

Willw

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2019, 11:24:05 AM »
snowman18: Thanks for the valuable info regarding phosgene gas.

I sometimes wonder whether I am unknowingly harming myself with chemicals.

I remember when I was a kid, me and my brother found some full cans of underarm deodorant, and nothing pleased us more than to spray the stuff into a burning flame.
Created a handheld torch of sorts, and of course we ended up breathing some of the burnt fumes in.
I still wonder what damage that innocent act did to our health, and how it ties in with my present health situation.
Daily driver '97 GMC W4 tipper on WVO/Kerosene mix.
6/1 clone standby generator.
Too many projects.

broncodriver99

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2019, 01:37:29 PM »
As a refrigeration tech I wouldn't recommend burning it. I have used the older mineral and alkylbenzene oils to start fires and they burn well but as noted they do tend to contain trace amounts of refrigerant which does indeed cause phosgene gas when burnt. The newer synthetics are polyolester oils and they produce quite a but of ash and powder when heated. We have problems with them creating powder and stopping up metering devices at temperatures below 250 F, I can only imagine how much ash they would create when burnt. I don't know weather the ash is abrasive or would cause a problem but it is still going to have the problem of residual refrigerant.

Depending on how long the oil has been sitting or how well the tech who removed the oil did recovering the refrigerant the concentration level may be low enough to not cause a problem but generally my experience has been that when performing oil changes or decommissioning equipment very little effort is made to boil the refrigerant out of the oil. As an aside I have been in the position may times of having to repair a leak when a hold back valve would not hold and had to braze with a small amount of refrigerant flowing and it created a green flame which was definitely not near as hot as the typical oxy/acetylene flame. I am not sure how burning refrigerant would effect the flame inside the cylinder. It is not a fun experience as burning lungs, watering eyes, and running nose tends to persist for at least a day after exposure to burning refrigerant.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 01:58:05 PM by broncodriver99 »

snowman18

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2019, 03:46:23 PM »
snowman18: Thanks for the valuable info regarding phosgene gas.

I sometimes wonder whether I am unknowingly harming myself with chemicals.

I remember when I was a kid, me and my brother found some full cans of underarm deodorant, and nothing pleased us more than to spray the stuff into a burning flame.
Created a handheld torch of sorts, and of course we ended up breathing some of the burnt fumes in.
I still wonder what damage that innocent act did to our health, and how it ties in with my present health situation.

Propellant used in your deodorant cans was probably butane or even propane not many people know that the stink we associate with propane and natural gas is added to the gas to alert of a leak.

When used as a propellant  in aerosols would have been used as sweet gas.

Your health hazard would have been the aluminum, yea we do stupid things and youngsters but I doubt to inhaled enough aluminum to cause you permanent harm.

When I was younger when making out with the wife I would sometimes place my armpit over her nose and my pheromones would drive her absolutely insane. Don't try this if your using deodorants.

If your wife / girlfriend wears your old shirts around the house and yard ya have yourself a keeper.

Aluminium-containing antiperspirants prevent toxins from being expelled by the body. These toxins clog up lymph nodes around the armpits and breasts and cause breast cancer. ... The aluminium in deodorants is absorbed by the skin. It affects the blood brain barrier and has been linked with the onset of Alzheimer's disease
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 03:49:16 PM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2019, 04:03:34 PM »
As a refrigeration tech I wouldn't recommend burning it. I have used the older mineral and alkylbenzene oils to start fires and they burn well but as noted they do tend to contain trace amounts of refrigerant which does indeed cause phosgene gas when burnt. The newer synthetics are polyolester oils and they produce quite a but of ash and powder when heated. We have problems with them creating powder and stopping up metering devices at temperatures below 250 F, I can only imagine how much ash they would create when burnt. I don't know weather the ash is abrasive or would cause a problem but it is still going to have the problem of residual refrigerant.

Depending on how long the oil has been sitting or how well the tech who removed the oil did recovering the refrigerant the concentration level may be low enough to not cause a problem but generally my experience has been that when performing oil changes or decommissioning equipment very little effort is made to boil the refrigerant out of the oil. As an aside I have been in the position may times of having to repair a leak when a hold back valve would not hold and had to braze with a small amount of refrigerant flowing and it created a green flame which was definitely not near as hot as the typical oxy/acetylene flame. I am not sure how burning refrigerant would effect the flame inside the cylinder. It is not a fun experience as burning lungs, watering eyes, and running nose tends to persist for at least a day after exposure to burning refrigerant.

Yes to all, as you said it just takes a minute trace of freon to experience those symptoms. I tossed my flame type leak detector for an electronic sniffer.

Haven't repaired anything for the past twenty years.

glort

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2019, 11:02:06 PM »
Used refrigerant oils often retain a certain amount of freon dissolved into the oil, when freon is exposed to heat of flame phosgene gas is created.

 ::) Freon hasn't been used in any new refrigeration system since at least 2010.
Things like R-134A were used a long time before that.  You are making out that the exhaust from an engine burning this stuff is going to be emitting straight mustard gas. Again no, it may contain trace elements but it's NOT going to be emitting some deadly toxic clouds that everything it touches falls dead like in a movie.

BTW, you left this significant detail out of your Wikipedia cut and paste about the fireman.

"  Above 200 C, phosgene reverts to carbon monoxide and chlorine, Keq(300 K) = 0.05. "

So in other words, The combustion temperature in the engine is 4-5X more than enough to break the  Phosgene down into CO and chlorine. It would therefore be virtually impossible to get any trace amounts of Freon, if there were any in the oil to begin with, to come out of an engine as Phosgene. And like everything else, it all depends on dosage.  Unless someone were deliberately inhaling the exhaust, a load of other things in it being far more dangerous in any case, exposure to phosgene would be again impossible to get sufficient of to cause problems.

In any case, only an idiot would breathe ANY exhaust from any engine whether it be burning Veg, LPG or any other fuel. Have a look at what is in the exhaust when burning Diesel fuel. it's got more nastys in it than about anything else!
The basic safety precaution with any engine is DON'T breathe the exhaust because it contains stuff that is bad for you.

 This is no different despite how much people always have a compulsion to blow things out of proportion and carry on with overly pedantic safety hysteria and FUD.

Bottom line: There is NO reason to panic about burning this oil provided normal , commons sense precautions were observed with the exhaust or to believe alarmist and safety sissy baseless hype. 

As for aluminium, it passes through the body harmlessly unlike Lead which accumulates.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 11:21:55 PM by glort »

glort

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Re: Used Refrigeration Oil
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2019, 11:45:27 PM »

 The newer synthetics are polyolester oils and they produce quite a but of ash and powder when heated. We have problems with them creating powder and stopping up metering devices at temperatures below 250 F, I can only imagine how much ash they would create when burnt. I don't know weather the ash is abrasive or would cause a problem but it is still going to have the problem of residual refrigerant.

All waste oils, Veg, engine, transmission and even things like lard, Duck fat and coconut oil produce ash when burnt.
I was aware of this before I even got into the whole Veg/ alternative Fuels thing and did tests to confirm it.  If one gets a tablespoon of Kero, Diesel or Turps and heats it over a blow torch they burn with no dicenrable ash or residue. Try that with Veg and you get a few percent of ash remaining and try it with Engine oil and I'd estimate you get about 10% ash.  Interestingly, this also happens with Turbine fuel as the antifreeze additives form an ash and leave residue even when the fuel is allowed to evaporate. It's a very easy experiment to do and one could easily do the test with Veg, WMO and any other oil and compare the results. If the ash content is the same or less than WMO as I highly suspect, then there would be no problems running that oil as WMO is run but thousands of people over many years with good success. Just as our resident Forum Genius Ed who has run multiple engines on it for thousands of hours.

I can only assume that the ash being a fine powder after combustion is blown out in the exhaust.  Problems only occur when the oils are incompletely burnt which leaves a mid stage carbon phase which can accumulate mainly in ring lands which reduces compression and causes an escalating cascading failure.

To combat this problem which only occurs with engines that are bing over fueled or have worn injectors or other problems, water injection does a PERFECT job of keeping engines and exhaust systems free of this build-up.


Quote
Depending on how long the oil has been sitting or how well the tech who removed the oil did recovering the refrigerant the concentration level may be low enough to not cause a problem but generally my experience has been that when performing oil changes or decommissioning equipment very little effort is made to boil the refrigerant out of the oil.

Having only played with refrigeration myself, as far as I was aware, refrigerants in all common use boiled at temperatures UNDER -20oC and vapor pressures far below that of atmospheric which was one of the reasons it was used as a refrigerant in the first place.

If that is the case, then if the oil was contained in a normal drum, the refrigerant would boil out very easily and would escape when said drum was opened. Even if the drum was sealed, an ordinary drum is not going to contain the pressures that gas would generate when it did boil out or evaporate.

In any case, the solution to the potential problem for the pedantic would be to either bubble the oil in an open container in a well ventilated place or spray it back into itself which would quickly and easily remove all the refrigerant.  Given the far below room temp boiling point and sub atmospheric vapor pressure. Letting the stuff stand in an open container with maybe a stir should be more than adequate to remove all refrigerant.

Furthermore, with the the solubility in oil being something around .1% from what I can find, any freon in the oil is going to be of a such a tiny amount it is going to be completely irrelevant.

Putting a flame near a charged system leak where pure gas is escaping is going to be a whole different ball game to the residual amount, if any at all, in oil.