Author Topic: Centrifuges Really Work  (Read 286 times)

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 06:01:50 PM »
Observation, the oil used for this experiment contained enough moisture to form gas bubbles when a DC current was passed through the oil.

After about an hour it was observed that the infusion of gas bubbles had caused the oil to become cloudy. The bubbles had dispersed overnight and the oil was once again amber in color.

The hot pan test showed the test oil to be free of moisture.

Oil from the 16 liter jug is the first to be deposited into the hot pan which shows it to be free of moisture the second drop is from the test oil.

Electrolysis showed evidence of moisture as the infusion of minute gas bubbles had turned the oil cloudy. The standing overnight the gas had a chance to rise once the gas had dispersed from the oil  the cloudiness disappeared.

The experiment was based on the electrolysis of water to make hydrogen gas as a fuel, the Ph of the oil told me that it would conduct a DC current and it was my theory the DC current would break the moisture bonds into their respective gas's.

I encourage others to duplicate this experiment then report your observations.

A short video of the hot pan test.

https://youtu.be/mSsCgfQDPYg

« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 06:04:19 PM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2019, 06:12:20 PM »
Most of us are aware of the explosive nature of hydrogen gas, in the chrome plating industry it's a well known fact that hydrogen will cause metals to become brittle.

Hydrogen has an affinity for metals, be aware of this fact when choosing a vessel to work with a procedure that will generate hydrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Description
Hydrogen embrittlement also known as hydrogen assisted cracking and hydrogen-induced cracking, describes the embrittling of metal after being exposed to hydrogen. It is a complex process that is not completely understood because of the variety and complexity of mechanisms that can lead to embrittlement

glort

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2019, 11:07:21 PM »

Hang in there glort we're going to learn something new here. 

Yes, we are apparently.


https://www.thoughtco.com/the-ph-of-vegetable-oil-608887

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2019, 02:55:18 AM »

Hang in there glort we're going to learn something new here. 

Yes, we are apparently.


https://www.thoughtco.com/the-ph-of-vegetable-oil-608887

+1 but no cigar, water moisture in waste cooking oil donates the H atom to give a notable ph, depending on which foods were cooked in the oil will determine of the Ph is alkali or acidic

Fortunately both will conduct an electrical current, I do not have ph strips so the test oil was from the fryer so to speak to the test jar.

You did mention earlier that vegetable oil was hydroscopic and I have since read material that supports your claim.

So it would be safe to assume freshly processed cooking oil could pick up traces of moisture from humidity in the air.

From the oil used for this experiment neither the oil from the 16 liter jug or the test batch showed evidence of moisture on the hot pan test.

As I mentioned earlier the test batch turned cloudy, for what its worth I'm going to run this experiment again.

Only this time I'm going to add 1/4 cup of water then thoroughly mix it onto the oil then at the end of the test do the hot pan test.

Personally I think I've stumbled onto an economic method of drying waste vegetable oil

« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 03:21:10 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2019, 04:00:51 AM »
I've added 400 ml of water, 10:00 pm Sunday evening.


glort

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2019, 04:12:06 AM »

I did say Pure vegetable oil as in not used or contaminated, has no PH.  Used oil and oil containing water is different as it is the water not the oil that has a Ph value and why the water needs to be eliminated.  In any case it is not the PH of the water in the oil that causes the problems. If one wanted to get pedantic, one would probably be better ( again in a largely useless way) to pay attention to the TITRATION of the oil rather than the PH.
Titration is a far better indicator of the quality of the oil than PH.

That said I have run oil of very high titration that made it virtually useless for Bio feedstock and it was the same in practice as low Titrating oil. If one was fussy about the level of Titration , the question would be where do you set the benchmark for what is acceptable and what is not?
In all the years I have been playing with oil I have never seen mention of any problems caused by high titration oil  so again, concerning oneself with that would be of no benefit or value.

Any oil that passes a HPT does not need further drying. Like spinning or filtering oil to .5 Um, drying the oil beyond what will pass a HPT is of no benefit.
Oil which is drier than will indicate on a HPT will only pick up atmospheric moisture very quickly from the fuel tank so serves no purpose and is a waste of time and energy.

Many people over the years have gone overboard on preparing oil but other than to just spend more money and waste time and resources, there is no benefit or associated guarantee of elimination of problems in the future by going overboard. once the standard is reached, there is no point going any further because the returns are not there.

It's only engine fuel not blood for a transfusion.  :0)

Another useless fallacy with using veg in mechanical pumps is heating it.
The folklore and parroted flawed mantra goes you should heat the oil to reduce the viscosity to go through the pump and spray from the injector Correctly.  Again, an ill thought out but almost universally spread load of rubbish.  You only need the oil warm enough to melt any condensed fats so they do not block the fuel filter. after that, Makes no difference at all. Inline and rotary pumps will handle and are specified to handle much higher viscosities than you could get oil to flow down a fuel line in the first place.

As far as Injectors go, to suggest that heating the miniscule amount of oil in the injector lines and injectors is going to have any influence on the temp it sprays through the injector which is in good contact with a lump of metal with a 100KG thermal mass in a vehicle is going to change the temprature of which that oil injects is pure fantasy.

You will see endless and length discussions on the value of heating oil on any forum though.  Inevitably all from people who just followed what the guy before them did who followed the guy before him who did it the same as the guy..... and not one of this procession of people have even thought the concept through much less tried to perform any sort of tests or calculations.

Again, as long as the oil is warm enough so as any fats which may drop out do not condense on the filter and block it ( of which there should be no fats if the oil was prepped properly) then any other heating of the oil with mechanical pumps is just added expense and complication that has far more negative results than the non existent benefits.

glort

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2019, 04:22:17 AM »
I've added 400 ml of water, 10:00 pm Sunday evening.

That is a LOT of water to add to that amount of oil.
That much water would settle out in time and the majority would be on the bottom of the drum it was in. The dissolved water content will still be high in the oil that will sit above the water and rubbish layer but there is no way that after an appropriate settling period that much water will stay dissolved in the oil.

Are you trying to see how long it will take to get the water out?  If so, I'd say your test is unrealistic for the reasons above.  Standard practice with veg is to settle the oil out ( I like a min of 6 Months myself) which drops the free water and the great majority of the contaminants. You then pump the clean oil off the top of the drum or tank and process that.

You to me are " sabotaging" your test and making it overly difficult and impractical.  I would settle the oil at least a week, heating it to about 20oC over ambient will speed the process of the free water dropping out and then test  the oil that will sit on top of the water that will b on the bottom with other particles which will fall out of suspension.

I think this would give you a much more real world test and results rather than what you are doing now which is making it overly difficult for your method to succeed and possibly giving negative outcomes to what may prove to be a new and beneficial method of drying.

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2019, 05:44:26 AM »
I've added 400 ml of water, 10:00 pm Sunday evening.

That is a LOT of water to add to that amount of oil.
That much water would settle out in time and the majority would be on the bottom of the drum it was in. The dissolved water content will still be high in the oil that will sit above the water and rubbish layer but there is no way that after an appropriate settling period that much water will stay dissolved in the oil.

Are you trying to see how long it will take to get the water out?  If so, I'd say your test is unrealistic for the reasons above.  Standard practice with veg is to settle the oil out ( I like a min of 6 Months myself) which drops the free water and the great majority of the contaminants. You then pump the clean oil off the top of the drum or tank and process that.

You to me are " sabotaging" your test and making it overly difficult and impractical.  I would settle the oil at least a week, heating it to about 20oC over ambient will speed the process of the free water dropping out and then test  the oil that will sit on top of the water that will b on the bottom with other particles which will fall out of suspension.

I think this would give you a much more real world test and results rather than what you are doing now which is making it overly difficult for your method to succeed and possibly giving negative outcomes to what may prove to be a new and beneficial method of drying.

I never expected that the whole 400 ml of water would stay with the oil, after an hour and a half there is now a layer of separation.

I've upgraded the DC power supply to 12 Volts DC at 30 amps, I will make a daily report on this experiment for one week.

My shop at the moment is not heated and it's freezing outside. Warming the oil wouldn't hurt but going do do this with out.

With the oil being cold and thick I'll give it a stir once a day to help disperse the bubbles, if any appear.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 05:47:38 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 01:45:53 AM »
To cold in the shop, I've terminated the experiment.

glort

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2019, 03:16:13 AM »
Too Cold?

You were pumping 30A @ 12V into that 4? litre jar.
That is  30x 12=  360W. I would have thought that would be plenty to heat the solution to a workable room temperature.
Of course extrapolating that electrical input, we have 360W x 24 Hrs = 8.64Kwh a day, x7 = 60.48 Kwh week.

That's a shit load of power to dry a few litres of oil!
Even if it only takes half the time to dry it, still an over the top amount of power to dry even 100X that amount of oil.

Water pump I used on my dryer was 400W and even in cold humid conditions I could dry 200L of oil in 3 hours and that was worst case scenario. Average was more like one hour.

Perhaps this setup will not be the breakthrough I hoped for.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 03:21:13 AM by glort »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2019, 06:47:38 AM »
In part because of the cold, and the water no longer had the propertys required to carry a current, could have added a small amount of table salt to encourage the flow of current.

I made the mistake of using the same oil for the second experiment, I figure the salts and nitrates from the foods cooked in the was electrically changed. If I had PH test strips on hand I could verify if any changes that may have taken place.

Electrolysis of salt water produces chlorine gas and hydrogen along with caustic soda all of which would have damaged my titanium electrodes.

In the near future I plan to plantinise the surfaces of these titanium electrodes to use in other electro chemistry projects.

In this tube video he as added baking soda to make the water conductive, which in my opinion would not adulterate the oil for our use.

Baking soda is basic, ph 7 is neutral number below that are acidic and above are basic. I figure if you added in and dissolved enough baking soda to bring the ph to around 8 your in the money for drying your waste oil.

The procedure shown in the video is producing oxygen and hydrogen


https://youtu.be/HQ9Fhd7P_HA



« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 06:54:50 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2019, 06:51:17 AM »
Now this looks like an interesting read then off to do some research on patent numbers.

 Catalyst frees hydrogen from seawater

New solar-powered electrolysis system avoids briny bugbears like chlorine production

by Mark Peplow
March 30, 2018

https://cen.acs.org/energy/hydrogen-power/Catalyst-frees-hydrogen-seawater/96/web/2018/03
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 08:22:48 AM by snowman18 »

glort

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2019, 09:36:31 AM »

In the veg heyday and for a while thereafter, a variety of additives were used to dry oil.

Salt, talcum powder, baking soda, dimatious ( sp?) earth and later even cement was added to remove the water and help settle out particles.
A proprietary product called magnesite was also developed for the job.  Given the cost, most people used this as a finishing treatment to ensure all water was removed after more conventional methods were used. Another example of going overboard for no benefit.

Always seemed counter productive to myself and the fellow greasers I was friends with to add what was in effect a contaminant  to the oil which meant more  material to remove and waste to dispose of. The fact that all these products could be potentially very damaging to the fuel system if not completely removed was another significant factor.  One guy who claimed to be the inventor of the concrete method had some truly laughable failures and stuff ups with that idea but wasn't easily put off although he did give the idea away in time for an "Improvement" to his process which involved adding acid from memory.  That guy sure did cost himself some money in ruined equipment and Injector pump repairs!


Never had any trouble drying  and filtering my oil the way I did it and neither did the many people who built themselves similar processors from the design.

I think one really needs to have the goals and objectives of what they want to do clear in their heads.
For me it was to make the process of getting my oil clean and dried tot he required standards as hands off as possible, to have a cheap and easy to build processor that was dirty oil in, clean oil out and never shall it see the light of day in between using the most basic parts and to do it for the smallest practical energy investment or running cost.

I have been very happy what I came up with achieved that. It could have been more hands off, I could have pumped the oil into the processor instead of hand loading it.  I did it by hand for the exercise. I could have put an electric heating element in the tank  but I opted to use an oil burner or just let the pump warm the oil.  I could have done what a mate did and set his up on an industrial controller that would automatically load itself, process and then pump out the clean oil and reload itself for 4 cycles which was the capacity of his holding tank.

Seemed amazing but as he pointed out, an average washing machine did just as much or more which was where he ot the idea from.
I was happy to have a level of hands on as I enjoy playing with and learning from doing it as well as a bit of well needed exercise.

I used to set the processor up under a covered pergola at the side of the house. I'd do a run of up to 2000L over a weekend. I laugh now when I think about the exercise of carrying 2000L of oil  from one side of the yard where I had the settling tanks, back to the other side and down a bit and then back to theclean oil holding tanks back besides the dirty ones.  Used to do it  carrying 2x 25L drums at a time.  No wonder I was so much fitter then! :0)
I wasn't completely nuts. I did start out pumping it but as I only did batches about every 6 months, whenever I put the hose away, rats would get to it and chew holes in it and I'd have to buy another 50M which wasn't cheap especialy for the one use.  That's whay I gave up on pumping and just carried the oil back and forth.

Time I was finished processing, there was oil everywhere.  Never worried about it. Put everything away and then cleaned  the driveway down with caustic.  Mrs only complaint was when I was done the concrete came up so clean it made the rest look dirty so she asked If I could move up and down the driveway  so it all looked new.  :0)