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Author Topic: Centrifuges Really Work  (Read 9010 times)

snowman18

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Centrifuges Really Work
« on: November 09, 2019, 03:23:37 AM »
This was a small experimental centrifuge that I made to recover precious metals from computer chips, when I started this project knew absolutely nothing of how they worked.

I've used a DC motor with a speed controller the bowl is made from a solid piece of polypropylene which is mounted direct onto the motors shaft.

You can see the gold in the concentrates last image.

My next centrifuge will be used to clean waste cooking oil, I'll be using a spindle from a discarded lawn mower deck but these are cheap enough to purchase new

The tan colored material in the first bowel picture is the precious metals, then when these were extracted copper showed up.












saba

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2019, 12:29:36 PM »
Interesting to follow,

Once I had ideas about trying to use a clothes dryer/spinner. They are out of fashion and you can pick them up for cheap. Should give some G's and they should keep the mess in the enclosure.

regards bernhard

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2019, 06:02:54 PM »
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge

How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.

Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.







« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 06:11:58 PM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 12:43:23 AM »
Most modern washing machine motors these days are 3 phase running off an inverter incorporated into an onboard module.

The use of a 3 phase motor eliminates the need for a transmission, the motor receives commands from the inverter module for speed and direction of rotation.

If your neighbor had set a broken washing machine to the curb in all probability it has a faulty inverter, the motor should be salvaged for projects like building a centrifuge.

An inexpensive VFD ( variable frequency drive ) is all that is needed to run that motor and they will spin up to 20,000 rpm. Om the video below Raw Power near the beginning of the video says the bowel is operating at 6,000 rpm.

For a bowel the size of the Raw power centrifuge the manufacture is still within the safe limits. But I would not attempt to pull more G force fro that bowel.

Here's a link to calculate g forces generated re diameter and rpm's applied.
http://www.endmemo.com/bio/grpm.php


VFD powering up a repurposed smart drive motor.
https://youtu.be/yaIUp9ZzjYU

Raw Power Centrifuge
https://youtu.be/yaIUp9ZzjYU
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 12:46:54 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 02:34:49 AM »
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge

 

Yes, but that's not something you would build yourself or would be able to afford for drying oil.


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How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

Our centrifuges produced about z G's before self destructing.   :(  Commercial fuges people have used both the bowl and the jet type do NOT get dissolved water out of oil.  There is a big difference between water droplets and dissolved water.  Dissolved water particles are very small and the molecular weight is too close to water to seperate by non specialised fuges. Not basing this on my experience with them as much as going on other peoples attempts I have been reading for 15 years plus. Some real smart people have taken this on and never had success UNLESS, they invest considerable energy in heating the oil to drive the water off by evaporation.

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The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

Yep, that's what everyone thinks until they they get oil that is wet and learn there are other forces at work. TBH, I forget what they are now, learned and forgot about it a long time ago as it was irrelevant.  The frying process even though it typicaly operates at double the boiling point of water does NOT eliminate all the moisture from the oil.  Yeah, I know it sounds illogical but it's a well known thing in veg circles not something I made up.

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The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

That is not what happens.  The moisture continues to escape through the cells of the food while it is being cooked.  If all the water was eliminated you would have something as dry as a brick.  If the food was sealed, the increasing temperature and steam pressure inside the food would cause it to rupture.

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Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Again, this -may- be possible on some specialised industrial Fuge but it's not going to happen on a home made bowl fuge before it explodes.  Again, many smart people around the world have tried it and no one got dry oil that would pass a simple Hot pan test which is the basic standard of dry oil just by spinning alone.

 Not talking about droplets, talking about DISSOLVED water which must be eliminated to prevent a range of problems.

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Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.
 

Completely and utterly useless against DISSOLVED water.  If one is putting oil wet enough to have drop out in their tank, they are very soon going to be one of these people whom complain Veg does not work and caused them problems when the people who prepare the oil right will do it for years without issue.  The ONLY separator / filter that is effective against dissolved water is the water block type Filters. Forget who makes them now, Racor Maybe? But they are very expensive ( and bulky)  and if you run undried oil through them they will block up fast as is their job.

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Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

Maybe no guarantee but if you do it right and check it, definitely works and effective.  Have the vids demonstrating it.  Yes, air does have moisture but unless you are dying on very humid days which a smart person pays attention to and avoids, the humidity in the air is still low enough to dry the dissolved water out of the oil to the required standard.  I have also channelled combustion air from a burner though the processor and that really rips the moisture out.   

Quote
I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.

Refrigeration and vacuum have been  used and are very effective but also very energy intensive. I have seen some setups that pump some serious energy into drying and filtering when it's just no necessary. Comes back to the old thing that many seem to believe that unless something is complicated, expensive, energy intensive and has a lot of built in failure points, it can't possibly work.  If you have the gear and it's not a lot to run, that would work well but again, that's not the fuge alone drying the oil, it's an extra process.

I would strongly suggest you look up what a hot pan test is and when you have spun up your oil, test it and see how much water you have. Unless you are exceptionally lucky, you WILL have water in  any used oil you get. In 17 years I have got oil ONCE that would pass a HPT without drying it.
I would say pretty conservatively I have got over 100K L  in the time I have been playing with veg.

When you get it really dry, you can add 3-4 drops of water to a cup of oil, mix it up and still pass the HTP.

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2019, 04:59:29 AM »
glort I"m doubtful bubbling air through WVO is going to remove the moisture, then on the other hand I agree with you on that the centrifuge will not removed any moisture which has become emulsified into the oil.

A very long time ago I used to collect waste engine oil that I sold to a refinery to use as feed stock, from each tank load I brought in a lab technician would grab a sample.

A measured amount from the sample was heated in a flask with the moisture re-condensed into a graduated column. From this they were able to calculate the percentage of water in my load.

The refinery deducted that percentage of water from the payout.

I have since done a bit of research regarding the ph of waste cooking oil, here is what I have learned.

The pH of neat vegetable oil varied between 7.38 and 8.63 and of WCO between 5.13 and 6.61

The used oil is acidic, water is one of the worlds best solvents.

I'm going to set up an experiment over the next couple of days and I'm hoping that my video camera will catch and show the results.

The experiment using a liter of waste cooking oil placed into a glass beaker, two stainless steel plates submerged into the oil with a small DC current passed through the oil.

What I'm expecting or hoping to see on camera is off gassing ( bubbles ) as the moisture molecules are being turned into its two components hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis.

If I'm not able to visually see any off gassing, I'll tape a plastic bag over the top of the beaker to catch the gas's - just keep open flames at bay.



snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 06:01:06 AM »
glort shortly after plugging in the power supply when a shine a light into the dark colored oil I can see bubbles coming off the electrodes.

The oil is cold and fairly thick hopefully the bag tapped over the top of the gallon jar has a story to tell us in the morning.

I'm using titanium electrodes but stainless steel strips will work just as sell for this purpose. The power supply came from an old ATM but you can use an old PC power supply, some you have to bride a couple of wires to get them to power up.

I'll run this experiment one more time, do a hot plate sizzle test before and after.

In the meantime we wait for the results.



« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 06:15:26 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2019, 06:07:11 AM »
From another unrelated experiment that resulted in some neat nickle crystals electroplated onto a stainless steel sheet.




mike90045

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2019, 06:29:48 AM »
Collecting the gas with a bag & rubber band, you have a perfect explosive mix of H & O2  The tiniest spark and your bag will vanish with a loud BOOM.
 (gas mix also known as Browns Gas, for the mark it leaves in your underwear)

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 07:14:27 AM »
Collecting the gas with a bag & rubber band, you have a perfect explosive mix of H & O2  The tiniest spark and your bag will vanish with a loud BOOM.
 (gas mix also known as Browns Gas, for the mark it leaves in your underwear)

Isn't chemistry great,

The gas is trapped in the oil, it has turned cloudy.



« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 07:18:34 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2019, 03:56:04 PM »

The pH of neat vegetable oil varied between 7.38 and 8.63 and of WCO between 5.13 and 6.61

Pure oil cannot have a PH because only water can.  That is one reason to dry the oil, to remove any acidity or alkalinity.
I have not found new oil to have moisture a Hot pan test can detect so I don't know where this information came from or how it was deduced unless they are talking some microscopic amount of water that would be far below the threshold of any concern for engine fuel use.

I have found a combination of heat and Bubbling work best for drying oil. Sometimes I add heat with a burner, mainly in winter and when it's not so cold I let the heat from the circ pump which gets imparted to the oil do the job. As long as you have the oil warmer than the ambient air the process works quite efficiently.

I am extremely cautious about boiling oil. Again there are principals at work I do not understand but are well aware of their presence.
I have a couple of times seen eruptions in oil that was being heated to dry it and had  one particular near miss that motivated me never to do that again.
I believe what happened was the water coalesced in the bottom of the drum which was being heated over a fire. I also believe the weight on the water from the oil above pressurised the oil slightly but enough to raise it's boiling point. The temps and pressures involved go against my understanding of science but a first hand demonstration of the effect makes that quite irrelevant. When the water went past that boiling point, it flashed to steam  which is about a 1000X expansion and sent a Column of oil straight up.  I would guess about 150L out of that 200L drum was outside the drum at the peak of the eruption and I was within 2 ft of it sitting there watching the fire up till that point, very relaxed. 

Very luckily for me the great majority of the oil which was smoking hot so about 200oC went straight back down into the drum and I got minimally splashed. The bottom of the drum was severely distorted  from the eruption and the frame it was sitting on exerted enough of a thump down into the  concrete it was sitting on for my wife to come up and ask what I had done to make the house shake that was 25M away.  Not an experience I'll ever forget nor wish to repeat except in a clear acre with me a good 30M away.

This was not the first time I had seen this, happened numerous times when drying oil for Bio production with a friend but it certainly was the most powerful and shorts filling example of the action.  I have dried VERY little oil like that since and won't use larger than a 25L Drum with constant stirring.

Boiling oil is a very poor way to dry it efficiency wise but not really a factor when you have loads of crappy oil you don't want to put through the vehicle or a ton of Kindly donated but incorrect to use engine oil.  It's also not something you can set up and walk away from like you can my normal processor.

This is a dodgy Vid I did some time ago on my processor which filters and dries the oil at the same time. Been using this setup a long time now and while I am always keen to find a better mousetrap, especially when someone else has done the hard yards and worked it out but so far, I have not been able to find one that is near as simple or cost effective.

ATM I am building a scaled up version from a 1000L IBC tank for a local company that runs a fleet of trucks and machinery.  I will be putting in an electric heater and thermostat to take the oil to about 40oC  to help drive off the moisture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQL5ff9ICUs

glort you disappoint me with this statement,

Pure oil cannot have a PH because only water can

The fact that used cooking oil becomes acidic was all I needed to know that the combination of oil and emulsified moisture would conduct a dc current.

The dc current liberates the emulsified moisture as hydrogen and oxygen which I have this far proven with the used oil used for the experiment having changed to a cloudy mixture.

The oil from the experiment is now infused with gas bubbles of hydrogen and oxygen, the oil is sitting on my shop in sub freezing temperatures outdoors.

The cold oil has trapped the microscopic gas bubbles which is causing the oil to be cloudy.

Hang in there glort we're going to learn something new here.

The information on ph was a quote from this article.

Viscosity Characteristics of Waste Cooking Oil with Ultrasonic Energy Irradiation
https://www.e-sciencecentral.org/articles/SC000015241

« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 04:22:22 PM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2019, 06:01:50 PM »
Observation, the oil used for this experiment contained enough moisture to form gas bubbles when a DC current was passed through the oil.

After about an hour it was observed that the infusion of gas bubbles had caused the oil to become cloudy. The bubbles had dispersed overnight and the oil was once again amber in color.

The hot pan test showed the test oil to be free of moisture.

Oil from the 16 liter jug is the first to be deposited into the hot pan which shows it to be free of moisture the second drop is from the test oil.

Electrolysis showed evidence of moisture as the infusion of minute gas bubbles had turned the oil cloudy. The standing overnight the gas had a chance to rise once the gas had dispersed from the oil  the cloudiness disappeared.

The experiment was based on the electrolysis of water to make hydrogen gas as a fuel, the Ph of the oil told me that it would conduct a DC current and it was my theory the DC current would break the moisture bonds into their respective gas's.

I encourage others to duplicate this experiment then report your observations.

A short video of the hot pan test.

https://youtu.be/mSsCgfQDPYg

« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 06:04:19 PM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2019, 06:12:20 PM »
Most of us are aware of the explosive nature of hydrogen gas, in the chrome plating industry it's a well known fact that hydrogen will cause metals to become brittle.

Hydrogen has an affinity for metals, be aware of this fact when choosing a vessel to work with a procedure that will generate hydrogen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

Description
Hydrogen embrittlement also known as hydrogen assisted cracking and hydrogen-induced cracking, describes the embrittling of metal after being exposed to hydrogen. It is a complex process that is not completely understood because of the variety and complexity of mechanisms that can lead to embrittlement

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2019, 02:55:18 AM »

Hang in there glort we're going to learn something new here. 

Yes, we are apparently.


https://www.thoughtco.com/the-ph-of-vegetable-oil-608887

+1 but no cigar, water moisture in waste cooking oil donates the H atom to give a notable ph, depending on which foods were cooked in the oil will determine of the Ph is alkali or acidic

Fortunately both will conduct an electrical current, I do not have ph strips so the test oil was from the fryer so to speak to the test jar.

You did mention earlier that vegetable oil was hydroscopic and I have since read material that supports your claim.

So it would be safe to assume freshly processed cooking oil could pick up traces of moisture from humidity in the air.

From the oil used for this experiment neither the oil from the 16 liter jug or the test batch showed evidence of moisture on the hot pan test.

As I mentioned earlier the test batch turned cloudy, for what its worth I'm going to run this experiment again.

Only this time I'm going to add 1/4 cup of water then thoroughly mix it onto the oil then at the end of the test do the hot pan test.

Personally I think I've stumbled onto an economic method of drying waste vegetable oil

« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 03:21:10 AM by snowman18 »

snowman18

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Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2019, 04:00:51 AM »
I've added 400 ml of water, 10:00 pm Sunday evening.