Author Topic: Exhaust smoke  (Read 18600 times)

slowspeed1953

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Exhaust smoke
« on: August 06, 2006, 11:04:08 PM »
Does anyone have any info as to at what load a 6/1 will carry before there is percievable color to the exhaust?

Ive spent the afternoon doing some calculations and have found the 6/1 volumetric efficiency to be 72% +/- .03%

That VE seems kinda low but if you guys arnt seeing any exhaust color with the loads you are applying then it is acceptable.

The ST gen heads seem to be in the low 70's% efficiency range.

Best wishes

GuyFawkes

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2006, 11:23:25 PM »

Ive spent the afternoon doing some calculations and have found the 6/1 volumetric efficiency to be 72% +/- .03%

what did you use?

magic slide rule or do you actually own a flowmeter and manometer?

thought so.

I've spent the afternoon doing some calculations and have found the proportion of bullshit spouted as facts to be greater than 76%

any takers?
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

mobile_bob

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2006, 11:52:41 PM »
i am curious as to what methods you used to arrive at your figures

volumetric efficiency has it place and all, but if you care about efficiency i fail to see where it fits in, most especially a diesel.

i am wth guy on this one, without manometers, flowmeters, and a host of other stuff, one can't attain much useful info in my opinion,
but...

i am open to correction and enlightenment :)

the bottom line anyone here should be concerned with is how much fuel does it burn to produce a given amount of work in a measured amount of time.

adding volumetric efficiency will pick up power, by means of burning more fuel.
but here again, making more power does not an efficient engine necessarily make.

what exactly are you planning to do to improve the volumetric efficiency?

very curious, and trying to be a more civil guy.

so how about some answers?

1. how did you arrive at your VE numbers

2. what measurments, tooling etc, did you use to arrive at those numbers

3. explain to me, how a rise in VE is going to make your engine more efficient? and by how much?

4. what evidence to you have to support your assertion?

looking forward to some answers

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

slowspeed1953

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2006, 12:19:50 AM »
At 72.3% volumetric efficiency a 6/1 ingests .00295321029 pounds of air (11.89 cfm)

Average air at sea level weighs .0807 pounds per cubic foot at standard temperature (o*c)

The full rack pump shot volume is .000203475 pounds of fuel per shot (7#'s/gal)

A diesel stoichiometeric mixture is 14.5:1

If you divide the total volume of air and fuel consumed at 72.3% you end up with a Diesel's proper air fuel ratio of 14.51:1

So anyway thats how its done with out all of the "needed" ::) test equpiment.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 12:49:40 AM by slowspeed1953 »

slowspeed1953

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 12:29:43 AM »
Bob,

Volumetric efficiency is directly related to pumping losses.

Look at it as trying to suck a thick milkshake through a straw, thats low volumetric eff.

Now use the same straw to suck up some water, thats high volumetric eff.

High volumetric efficiency does not use more fuel it uses less fuel to do the same amount of work, or the same amount of fuel to do more work.

Best wishes

rgroves

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2006, 12:57:01 AM »
So the screen names change but the bullshit goes on forever.
How about them carbon fiber push rods?


At 72.3% volumetric efficiency a 6/1 ingests .00295321029 pounds of air (11.89 cfm)

Average air at sea level weighs .0807 pounds per cubic foot at standard temperature (o*c)

The full rack pump shot volume is .000203475 pounds of fuel per shot (7#'s/gal)

A diesel stoichiometeric mixture is 14.5:1

If you divide the total volume of air and fuel consumed at 72.3% you end up with a Diesel's proper air fuel ratio of 14.51:1

So anyway thats how its done with out all of the "needed" ::) test equpiment.

Peace&Love :D, Darren


A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

Rtqii

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2006, 01:09:32 AM »
The only thing I got out of this thread is that I want a thick milkshake now  :-\

mobile_bob

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2006, 01:11:10 AM »
ya know,,, i almost addressed you as Darren before my last post,,,, but i thought i would try and be more civil.... :)

so you are back you nuckle head..... :)


ok there is a difference between theoretical and real world results,,, and you ain't ever going to get their without
some pretty good test procedures and instrumentation.

anyway ... welcome back you scruffy dawg you...

just don't think for a moment i am cutting you any slack,,, :)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

slowspeed1953

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2006, 01:25:54 AM »
So the screen names change but the bullshit goes on forever.
How about them carbon fiber push rods?


At 72.3% volumetric efficiency a 6/1 ingests .00295321029 pounds of air (11.89 cfm)

Average air at sea level weighs .0807 pounds per cubic foot at standard temperature (o*c)

The full rack pump shot volume is .000203475 pounds of fuel per shot (7#'s/gal)

A diesel stoichiometeric mixture is 14.5:1

If you divide the total volume of air and fuel consumed at 72.3% you end up with a Diesel's proper air fuel ratio of 14.51:1

So anyway thats how its done with out all of the "needed" ::) test equpiment.

Peace&Love :D, Darren



Aw come on love muscle that there some good math!

Russell on a more serious note how is the bio-gas plant comming?

Peace&Love :D, Darren

GuyFawkes

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2006, 01:30:41 AM »
At 72% volumetric efficiency a 6/1 ingests .002940956 pounds of air (11.844 cfm)

ah, an answer accurate to ten decimal places, fractions of a millionth of an ounce of air

avogadros number
6 times 10 to the 23 rd power, is the number of molecules of any element in a mole, eg the number of O2 (oxygen) molecules in 16 grams of oxygen.

your "calculation" significantly approaches avogadros number in "accuracy"

only a moron with a calculator and no clue about useful accuracy uses numbers like these.

BUT IT GETS WORSE

The numbers you started with and put into your calculator aren't taken as readings from any instrument, they were simply pulled out of your ass, ever heard of bernoulli? what happens to a gas when it is drawn or forced through a venturi, eg an intake or exhaust tract or a valve seat.

WORSE STILL

You don't even show your workings or which particular formula you have chosen to use.

Are you by any chance kyrdawgs long lost twin?



Quote
Average air at sea level weighs .0807 pounds per cubic foot at standard temperature (o*c)

is that a lab bottle of average air, or are you going to talk about humidity, dew point, atmospheric pressure gradients?

don't tell me, this is another number you pulled out of your ass


Quote
The full rack pump shot volume is .000203475 pounds of fuel per shot (7#'s/gal)

wow, ten digit precision again, what fuel temp? what grade of fuel? how did you account for wear in the pump which will exceed the accuracy of your "calculations"?

your "math" is so full of holes it ain't even true.

it is REALLY REALLY hard to get anything so wrong.


Quote
A diesel stoichiometeric mixture is 14.5:1

diesels aren't stoichiometric, you be thinking of petrol (gasoline to you) engines.

Quote
Guy since your so clever could YOU do the math? 

bet your ass, but the first thing YOU need to learn is that there is no relationship WHATSOEVER, except inside your head, between what actually happens inside a lister or any other engine come to that, and what you get when you start putting numbers you pulled out of your ass into formulae that you don't understand and coming out with answers of meaningless precision and then pronouncing them as gospel.

a 2 stroke on tickover, eg really really really bad VE for an IC engine, approaches your number, very few engines are less than 100% VE

Go an MEASURE, not calculate, but MEASURE the VE of a piston type vacuum pump pulling one tenth of an atmosphere on the induction side, it is way way way higher than you'd believe, even a tenth of a bar has mass, and therefore momentum.

Turbomolecular vacuum pumps are turbines, no pistons or valves, no seals, and yet they will pull a hard vacuum. Because all gases have mass and therefore momentum.


Quote
If not Ill do it for you.
Best wishes

You'll do it for me? this will be a laugh.

Pe + 1/2PVe2 = P0 + 1/2PV02

this is one of the four, from memory, equations you need to calculate VE the hard way, without manometer and flowmeter etc, which you don't have so don't even try bullshitting about it.

naturally having done this CALCULATION and offered to do the maths for me, you will know immediately if this equation is streamline, boundary layer, stagnation or laminar.

=================================


There is an inverse relationship between how competent a person rates themselves at something, and how competent they really are.

Bad drivers all think they are Ayrton Senna.

Bad engineers are the same.

1/ set out basic precepts
2/ list equipment used, and denote calibration etc
3/ list enviornmental variables
4/ list experimental subject
5/ list recorded results
6/ show deductions and any workings used to arrive at them

this way anyone can repeat and verify your results, or analyse them and see where an error was made.

What seems popular here is to pull some numbers out of your ass, grab some largely misunderstood and inapplicable but basic enough for the user to puzzle it out equation, grab calculator or computer spreadsheet, insert pulled out of your ass numbers into spreadsheet or calculator, peer at results full of self satisfaction and then publish them, not as number pulled out of your ass, which they are, but as a scientific calculation, and do everything you can do endow it with some sort of authority, like say, ten decimal places, that always looks good....

The trouble is those of us who are qualified and do know what we are talking about can spot you a mile off, but the poor backyard mechanic who hasn't got the time or desire to become a whizzo engineer simply is not equipped to make that value judgement.

Most of the people on here just want a cheap off grid generator, a few of them like the thing as a big boys toy too, but they just want to run their shit and keep the women happy with lights that work when they click the switch.

The last thing they need is to be told a pile of shit by some bloody idiot and end up thinking "hey, these listers things sure are inefficient, I'll just buy myself a modern generator" simply because they don't know that you are talking shit.

BTW don't try and make this personal, cos it ain't, I don't know you from adam and I don't know dick about you, much less enough to form an opinion, but in this thread you're talking 100% pure shit, you did not "calculate" anything, and if you disagree with that then you don't understand the meaning of the word.

cheers
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

snail

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2006, 01:37:37 AM »
6.02 x 1023  ;D ;D ;D


slowspeed1953

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 01:39:54 AM »
At 72% volumetric efficiency a 6/1 ingests .002940956 pounds of air (11.844 cfm)

ah, an answer accurate to ten decimal places, fractions of a millionth of an ounce of air

avogadros number
6 times 10 to the 23 rd power, is the number of molecules of any element in a mole, eg the number of O2 (oxygen) molecules in 16 grams of oxygen.

your "calculation" significantly approaches avogadros number in "accuracy"

only a moron with a calculator and no clue about useful accuracy uses numbers like these.

BUT IT GETS WORSE

The numbers you started with and put into your calculator aren't taken as readings from any instrument, they were simply pulled out of your ass, ever heard of bernoulli? what happens to a gas when it is drawn or forced through a venturi, eg an intake or exhaust tract or a valve seat.

WORSE STILL

You don't even show your workings or which particular formula you have chosen to use.

Are you by any chance kyrdawgs long lost twin?



Quote
Average air at sea level weighs .0807 pounds per cubic foot at standard temperature (o*c)

is that a lab bottle of average air, or are you going to talk about humidity, dew point, atmospheric pressure gradients?

don't tell me, this is another number you pulled out of your ass


Quote
The full rack pump shot volume is .000203475 pounds of fuel per shot (7#'s/gal)

wow, ten digit precision again, what fuel temp? what grade of fuel? how did you account for wear in the pump which will exceed the accuracy of your "calculations"?

your "math" is so full of holes it ain't even true.

it is REALLY REALLY hard to get anything so wrong.


Quote
A diesel stoichiometeric mixture is 14.5:1

diesels aren't stoichiometric, you be thinking of petrol (gasoline to you) engines.

Quote
Guy since your so clever could YOU do the math? 

bet your ass, but the first thing YOU need to learn is that there is no relationship WHATSOEVER, except inside your head, between what actually happens inside a lister or any other engine come to that, and what you get when you start putting numbers you pulled out of your ass into formulae that you don't understand and coming out with answers of meaningless precision and then pronouncing them as gospel.

a 2 stroke on tickover, eg really really really bad VE for an IC engine, approaches your number, very few engines are less than 100% VE

Go an MEASURE, not calculate, but MEASURE the VE of a piston type vacuum pump pulling one tenth of an atmosphere on the induction side, it is way way way higher than you'd believe, even a tenth of a bar has mass, and therefore momentum.

Turbomolecular vacuum pumps are turbines, no pistons or valves, no seals, and yet they will pull a hard vacuum. Because all gases have mass and therefore momentum.


Quote
If not Ill do it for you.
Best wishes

You'll do it for me? this will be a laugh.

Pe + 1/2PVe2 = P0 + 1/2PV02

this is one of the four, from memory, equations you need to calculate VE the hard way, without manometer and flowmeter etc, which you don't have so don't even try bullshitting about it.

naturally having done this CALCULATION and offered to do the maths for me, you will know immediately if this equation is streamline, boundary layer, stagnation or laminar.

=================================


There is an inverse relationship between how competent a person rates themselves at something, and how competent they really are.

Bad drivers all think they are Ayrton Senna.

Bad engineers are the same.

1/ set out basic precepts
2/ list equipment used, and denote calibration etc
3/ list enviornmental variables
4/ list experimental subject
5/ list recorded results
6/ show deductions and any workings used to arrive at them

this way anyone can repeat and verify your results, or analyse them and see where an error was made.

What seems popular here is to pull some numbers out of your ass, grab some largely misunderstood and inapplicable but basic enough for the user to puzzle it out equation, grab calculator or computer spreadsheet, insert pulled out of your ass numbers into spreadsheet or calculator, peer at results full of self satisfaction and then publish them, not as number pulled out of your ass, which they are, but as a scientific calculation, and do everything you can do endow it with some sort of authority, like say, ten decimal places, that always looks good....

The trouble is those of us who are qualified and do know what we are talking about can spot you a mile off, but the poor backyard mechanic who hasn't got the time or desire to become a whizzo engineer simply is not equipped to make that value judgement.

Most of the people on here just want a cheap off grid generator, a few of them like the thing as a big boys toy too, but they just want to run their shit and keep the women happy with lights that work when they click the switch.

The last thing they need is to be told a pile of shit by some bloody idiot and end up thinking "hey, these listers things sure are inefficient, I'll just buy myself a modern generator" simply because they don't know that you are talking shit.

BTW don't try and make this personal, cos it ain't, I don't know you from adam and I don't know dick about you, much less enough to form an opinion, but in this thread you're talking 100% pure shit, you did not "calculate" anything, and if you disagree with that then you don't understand the meaning of the word.

cheers

LOL Guy your right that calculation really is the "shit"

Peace&Love :D, Darren

GuyFawkes

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2006, 01:41:23 AM »
6.02 x 1023  ;D ;D ;D



6.0221367 x 1023 if we're gonna be pedantic

If you had Avogadro's number of unpopped popcorn kernels, and spread them across the United States of America, the country would be covered in popcorn to a depth of over 9 miles
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

slowspeed1953

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2006, 01:41:56 AM »
The only thing I got out of this thread is that I want a thick milkshake now  :-\

LOL

Peace&Love :D, Darren

slowspeed1953

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Re: Exhaust smoke
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2006, 01:46:32 AM »
So back to the original question, at what load does a 6/1 start to show color in the exhaust?

Peace&Love :D, Darren