Author Topic: Yanmar chp  (Read 3570 times)

saba

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Yanmar chp
« on: October 18, 2019, 02:22:34 AM »
By luck I have some time on my hands, I like to replace my 6-1 start o matic chp thats giving to much vibrations to use it indoors for one based on a yanmar TS 105.

Yanmar I bought I while ago as a genset 5 kw, to start with a good base I opened it for a quick peek inside. Turned out piston ran a bit hot, liner just needed some honing. To start off "new"I ordered new piston and liner with some gaskets from sunity taiwan. I think the set has nearly no running hours just lack of cooling water.

I scored a silent box for a small marine generator, brand new still in plastic, it should just fit snuck inside the box.

I like the lister 10 times better but it's like having a horse like a pet in your house, the yanmar more being like a hamster.

I'll try to post progress reports, it will not go fast due to more important stuff eating time.

I was pretty far with automation on the lister, arduino current measuring temperatures flow coolingwater. So hopefully I can just mount it to this one without to much trouble.
Need to think about some exhaust system with heat recovery absolute no noise and no dripping of condensing exhaust fumes at places you don't expect/want.
Thinking of putting the silent box on a raised frame and doing my exhaust 'scrubber'underneath.

I might need to order a new pully for the electromotor, it says 2400 revs max for the yanmar and that should give 1510 on the electromotor.

Yanmar has a throttle handle stop start run, I will replace it with a servo should also give me the ability to in/decrease power.
Electromotor is a dahlander two speed 1500 or 750. The tag plate was not there when I bought it but I think it is at least 8KW by the look at the size. The lister I always started on low revs and when it was running I would pop the breaker untill it reached 620rpm and then switch to the high rpm breaker.
If you 'drive'an electromotor you can use it as a generator.
For example if you read the tag and it says 3kw and 1470rpm, then when you dive it to 1530 you will generate 3kw.

To be continued,

Bernhard

veggie

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2019, 03:54:33 PM »
saba,

Interesting project. I am currently building the same thing using a Changfa 175. A physically smaller system than yours.
The Yanmar should run quite smooth since these engine types have internal counterbalance shafts.
Having an enclosure for the system will certainly help you get control of mechanical noise.

I have not yet found a robust throttle servo to drive with my Arduino controller. I have several plastic units from ebay (with metal gears) but I fear they may not be reliable enough. What unit do you use?

Veggie
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 04:03:40 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
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- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

saba

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2019, 10:17:36 PM »
DS3218MG
From Ali express it feels strong should pull 20kg. I haven't tried it yet  but I will.
Bernhard

saba

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2019, 10:22:13 PM »
I still need to figure out something nice looking and functional to pull the valve lifter. I see your blanking plate has a bit more mass then mine, bit afraid mine is to flimsy and will leak. Will post some more foto's later today.

Bernhard

veggie

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2019, 10:32:38 PM »
I used 3/8" (10mm) steel plate for the blanking plate.
This gave me enough material to cut pipe threads for the connections.
The pipe fittings screw right into the plate.
The inlet and outlet are different to facilitate convection.
-Outlet fitting takes water from the top of the water jacket (right at the blanking plate). The highest point.
-Water return connection has an extension below the plate which delivers cooler water to the bottom of the cooling chamber.
I intend to use an "open" system which is vented so I do not expect any pressure to build. A high temp switch is necessary to kill the engine if the temperature approaches dangerous levels due to a heat exchanger pump failure or a radiator fan failure.

- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

glort

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2019, 10:38:10 PM »
Have you run the induction motor as yet? I'm thinking not.

 IMAGS are a complex and delicate balancing act.
I have played with them on an off for years and I can assure you that 3 KW motor, no matter what you read will NOT give you reliable and stable power in the correct voltage/ frequency range much above 1.5 KW.

Unlike a generator, as a stand alone you just can't load them up. They will crash the field unless carefully balanced for the load and switched loads like a fridge are neigh impossible to run without complex electronic controllers.  Fixed loads such as lights are OK long as you don't go turning them on and off but for most other variable loads, I think you would be dissapointed and find an IMAG impractical.

If you are going to grid connect it for back feeding, different thing but for stand alone use for household demands... Very limited usefulness.

I have a 12KW motor I have been playing with of late and after some trouble setting it up, I'm not real impressed. I thought having such a large motor would provide a lot better stability and ability to carry switched loads but have been pretty dissapointed.
I'm back to the years long search of a decent gen head.

veggie

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2019, 10:42:55 PM »
As I understand it, the over-speeding of an electric motor can certainly provide power BUT the run capacitors (ratings) must be tuned to the specific load for best power quality and performance. Once your system drifts away from the load "sweet spot" the capacitors no longer match the motor output. If you keep a constant load AND tune the capacitors you may be ok.
As glort stated, the name plate data may not reflect output capability.
I recently read an article where an electrical engineer was able to get 3kw from a 5kw motor when tuning the capacitors for a similar project.
He optimized his system for 2500 watts output.
If the load was dropped below 1800 watts the power factor went out the window. Very poor.

The power company adjusts thier massive capacitors on the fly at the power station to match loads, that's why Mains power is always optimized.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 10:50:22 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

saba

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2019, 12:22:03 AM »
Ok for this reason I got a three fase connection at home, here in holland every house has 3 fases but mostly only one fase is connected. If you connect a 3 fase motor to the grid it wil run with slip so the more power you take off the motor the more slip you have.

If you run the motor without load it will run at 1497 rpm (guess), the more load the more slip rpm drops. But if you 'overspeed' the motor you start generating.
The stator with all the windings creates the rotating field and pulls along the simple steel rotor but if you drive the rotor you will push the field in the stator.

I spend a lot of time on this and to my recollection it was my own invention to find out later loads of guys were doing the same.

I used up more then a 1000 liters of fuel so I hope it worked......

Nice thing is you can start your engine with your generator...

Regards Bernhard


saba

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2019, 12:31:41 AM »
Ok to make it clear I am not using anything just a breaker to connect the motor to the net and instead of the motor driving something ... you just start driving the motor. Works like a dream.
Only thing if there is a power outage ....you need candles.

Super save, I think reasonably efficient and cheap plenty old motors for sale for scrap money.

glort

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2019, 07:33:50 AM »

Yep, Been there, done that, published the videos years ago.

Did you know that you can combine all 3 phases a motor back to one single phase to your grid connection?  Did you also know that adding capacitors across the legs of a 3 -phase motor will mean you DON"T have to have candles if the grid goes down? Lights are about the best thing for an IMAG to run

How much is power In Holland? It would have to be VERY expensive for running an engine to backfeed to be worthwhile even on waste oil.

If you are wanting to connect only one phase to the grid and tap power off the others, you can do that. Provisos will be firstly you will have to spin the motor to start it because It won't start on one phase. the other thing is if you tap power off the unused phases, the draw on the connected [phase will rise. Over all you will get a power loss not a gain.

Connecting 2 phases of an induction motor and tapping off the 3rd phase to a 3 phase load from a single phase supply is called a rotary inverter.  The 3rd  spare phase will generate and you use that as the 3rd leg you don't have with a 3 phase supply.  For motors this is now easier and more efficient to do with capacitors that rotary converters.

If you have a single phase supply only connected to your home, I will gaurantee you will not be able to start an engine with it when you only have 2 legs connected on the 3 phase motor.  All 3 legs, yes, you -may- be able to wind it up on the decompressor but I think even that would be an ask with a 3 KW motor on a Yanmar.

I have played with these a fair bit so if you have any questions with the electrical side, ask away.

saba

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2019, 12:32:10 PM »
Hey glort, I think electromotor is approx 8kw, it's two speed dahlander. I always started the lister with it so this should be a lot easier.

On paper it should be profitable, electricity I generate pays for the fuel and then the generated heat is the profit.

But it's a hobby gives you an excuse to play with engines, and gives you something to show people if some birthday visitors come over.

It doesn't matter if hobbies cost money, if you leave out all the costs apart from fuel you make money just don't count the rest...

Bernhard

glort

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2019, 02:42:02 PM »
But it's a hobby gives you an excuse to play with engines, and gives you something to show people if some birthday visitors come over.

It doesn't matter if hobbies cost money, if you leave out all the costs apart from fuel you make money just don't count the rest...

Bernhard

Haha!
That is some inarguable reasoning right there!   :)

Is this engine 10.5 Hp rated?

If so you could probably run it slower and gear up the induction motor to get it to the revs you need and reduce the noise and wear and tear on the engine.
I recently got a couple of 12 HP Kubotas and I agree there are a smooth engine.  Obviously a lot more compact and lighter to move around or set up.
Are you going to run yours on Diesel or waste oil? I'm running mine on 50% Used veg atm and although I haven't touched the engine, it's running perfectly happy on the mix and I can't tell any difference in starting or performance.

Are you intending to try heat recovery from the exhaust? I came across some  " EGR coolers" the other day which are in fact air to liquid heat exchangers.  They are off a variety of Euro Vehicles and the price seems  quite good for what they are.  They would be perfect to fit to an engine exhaust and circulate water through to go into the main heat load. Not sure what sort of capacity they would run but might be worth a look if you don't have an exhaust HE already.

I'd be interested to see some pics and find out more about your control setup with the arduino etc.
There are some serious stepper motors out there that may do what you want or if you could control a regular motor, what about a windscreen wiper motor with a lever on it to pull a cable for the decompressor? I was playing with some of these old motors yesterday testing them and they are geared down and have loads of  torque. A couple of limit switches or timing their energising and reversing polarity would do the trick.
Should be any number readily available cheap at wrecking yards.

veggie

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2019, 03:12:41 PM »

Does the Yanmar have a 12 volt electric starter motor?
I suggest trying the starter motor without the decompression lever activated before you start designing a decompression servo.
Many of the commercial applications for these engines (including marine applications) do not use the decompression lever when starting.
The 12 volt starter motor may be quite adequate to rotate through compression.
However, if you need to use the electric motor/generator to start the engine some experimentation may be needed to see if has adequate torque.
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

veggie

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Re: Yanmar chp
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2019, 03:31:29 PM »
I wonder if these generic fuel system solenoids would work for your decompression actuation.
They are fast acting and have a fairly good pull strength.
That way you don't have to use PWM signaling to drive a servo on the Arduino. Just use a digital pin to drive a solid state relay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1502-12C2U1B2S1A-Fuel-cutoff-solenoid-12V-Kubota-D1402-D1403-D1005-D1105/392399233893?hash=item5b5cd12365:g:KxIAAOSwKgZdY5wN

- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw

veggie

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« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 03:39:17 PM by veggie »
- 6/1 GM90 Listeroid - Delco 33si Alternator
- Changfa R175 - Lease/Neville Alternator
- Kubota Z482 - 4kw
- JiangDong R165 Air cooled - 2 kw